Abdullah Oduro – Iman Cave #03 Raw Truths For Divorced Dads
AI: Summary ©
The speakers emphasize the importance of protecting one's money and children, avoiding negative emotions, and staying in a healthy relationship during divorce. They stress the need for men to show gratitude towards their parents and avoid damaging relationships, and the importance of showing proper behavior and avoiding abuse. The speakers also emphasize the need for strong parenting behaviors and avoiding false accusations, and the importance of negotiating and the psychological aspect of child support. They advise parents to focus on their own emotions and not give advertisements, and to take a "hasn't done enough" approach to pursuing problems and not bring it up to feeling burdened by it.AI: Transcript ©
How
does dad
tell
the kids
about the divorce?
What do I have control over on the
days the child is with me? I take
him to the masjid. I try and be
the best example, and part of being that
best example is even if you know the
mother is not the most practicing, I will
never bad mouth his mother in front of
him. Mhmm. And
example of a true Muslim. Like, what can
truly mentally prepare you as a father or
even as a mother
for not being able to, like, kiss your
kids every night before they go to bed?
Nothing will mentally prepare you for that. No.
That's good. You know? Okay. Your kids, when
they grow up, they do not care who
was right or wrong. They don't even wanna
hear it. They do not care. They just
want normalcy.
How's everyone doing? I'm Abdullah O'Drew and welcome
to the Iman Cave where we discuss issues
of male excellence while being grounded in faith.
I think we need to get a divorce.
It's time.
I I just can't handle this anymore.
Some of us have said this before.
Some of us have heard our friends say
it.
Or you'll be in the gym with your
friends and he's like, yeah it's not working
out man. I think I'm just gonna go
ahead and divorce her. Or,
she wants a divorce,
but I don't want to divorce her, what
should I do?
You know, we see these groups such as,
you know, you hear the red pill, you
hear of a group called MGTOW, which is
an acronym for men going their own way.
A lot of these groups,
yes, to admit to be truth truthful
is that some of these men are toxic,
and the term toxic masculinity
is present. Is it inherent within
the man to be masculine that it is
toxic? No, we don't agree with that. But
there are men that can be toxic,
just as there are women that can be
toxic. So there is an element of toxic
masculinity
and toxic femininity.
And by the other of Allah buys predestination,
this has emerged
from toxic
divorces,
From divorces of 2 individuals
that it just didn't work out, but they
decide
to get back at 1 another. Through divorce,
through the children, through alimony, through child support.
We're going to talk about that today because
this is a huge
challenge,
which if we do it by the permission
of Allah correctly,
it can be an opportunity. Within the chapter
of Talaq, there's a chapter named Talaq, a
chapter
in the Quran named
divorce.
You see throughout the chapter Allah subhanahu wa
ta'ala mentions
1 concept whether it's the verb or the
noun
of mindfulness
of God,
taqwa.
Being mindful of Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. Why?
Because as
prophet said I'll never forget 1 of my
shiur in Medina.
He mentioned the hadith of the prophet he
said
he said the best of you are those
who are best to their families and I
am the best to my family. And then
he made a small
he made a small little
element and explained it briefly, and he said,
no 1 knows you like your wife.
No 1 will know you like your wife,
gentlemen,
because behind those walls, that lion that came
out, your mother saw that when you were
younger. But now you're a man, and the
only 1 that knows that is your wife.
Sometimes you're afraid to announce the divorce
because the wife may be narcissistic.
She may be overbearing.
But divorce in Islam
can be a solution
to an existing
problem.
We're gonna talk about that from a legal
perspective and from a psychological
psychological perspective
all within the realm of Islam. That's why
we're here in the Iman cave to increase
our faith and
manifest masculine excellence. So the guest that we
have today, we've seen our returning guest, brother
Usman Muhuni,
licensed marriage and family therapist.
You saw him on the previous 2 episodes
when we talked about before marriage, during marriage.
And today, we're going to talk about after
marriage for the divorced men. And we have
a guest that has come from Chicago, Helen
from Chicago as well,
Naveed Hussain.
May Allah bless you. Divorced lawyer. Is it
okay to say divorce lawyer? I guess so.
Yeah. You wanna introduce someone in the community
as divorce lawyer? Some people say family lawyer.
Family lawyer. There we go. There we go.
You bring a lot better.
Yes. Both of these brothers, I look up
to them. They they're doing a lot for
the community.
And I I humbly believe that the communities
in the future will need them much, much
more. They've needed them because this is a
human issue. Man and woman don't get along.
Incompatibility,
both religious, both during their best, but sometimes
they're incompatible. We see this with the companions
of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam, but in
our days and times now, you will need
to get a a lawyer involved. You will
need to get a therapist involved
before, during, and after the process of
gender interaction
of having that bond for the sake of
Allah
I want to make this caveat
and, dare I say, disclaimer.
We are not going to cover
every single thing that deals with divorced
divorce.
Whether you are the divorce divorcee,
you're the 1 that you know, your wife
wanted a holler. She wanted to get let
go. She wanted to proceed on and not
continue the marriage, or you're the 1 that
initiated the divorce because,
as some would say, you know, the wife
was narcissistic and vicious, or you were the
1 humble enough to admit that you divorced
because you were the 1 in the wrong,
We're not gonna cover all of the problems
that we see, all of the challenges, but
we will do our best
to have some general guidelines
by introducing it with certain challenges
that men face that can be compromising
to their leadership,
compromising to their masculinity,
which in my humble opinion can compromise the
value of family
in the household and in a neighborhood and
in the world. So we're going to cover
it from 3 particular aspects.
It's going to be from community,
courts, and consciousness.
Use those 3 words for us to just
kind of have some milestone to start from
and expound upon.
Let's start from the,
community.
When we look at the community, you know,
you walk in. I was just at the
gym, and
speaking to a brother, talking to the brother,
and he's saying, yeah. I live right around
the corner from the gym. I'm like, there's
only apartments around the gym.
He said, yeah. I live by myself. I
said, by yourself? Don't you have kids?
He said, yeah. I've been divorced for 4
or 5 years. I didn't even know. Hence,
what you were talking about before the importance
of men getting together because these conversations can
be had much earlier.
But then he goes on to talk about
how his wife
was very vicious.
Right?
And
he
himself didn't wanna go around the community
because him going around the community, everybody knows.
Everybody knows that they got a divorce.
And this is the key word when talking
about community,
stigma. Mhmm.
There is a stigma
for him
being the abuser, verbal abuser,
for him being the physical abuser.
What have you all seen in regards to
men that deal with these community issues
after divorce?
I don't know if the tide is changing,
but right now I feel like the default
is what did he do wrong? Mhmm. You
know what I'm saying? So maybe the embarrassment
comes from there. And there might not even
be an embarrassment. This might be like somebody
recovering from,
just the trauma of it all. Right? It's
it's it's interesting. I'm I'm sorry. I'm jumping
right into it because we were talking Yeah.
We're talking about
we're talking about the idea of,
let's suppose somebody goes through this process and
they're divorced. Right?
When are they ready to possibly remarry? And
you hear this term a lot. Well, you
haven't healed. You haven't healed yet. Right?
And,
it's not what I realized, especially if you've
been through the court system, it's not just
about healing from the marriage, but it's about
healing from that whole entire process.
And I mean, just to jump right into
it. Right? Like, I went through it.
So so I
I divorced and then,
I got remarried.
And so we we we went through it.
Unfortunately, we didn't do it the right way.
We didn't have somebody cool like you So
but it was a learning process. Right?
And before I got married,
when I was, you know, going through different
and so on,
Right.
Perspectives.
I was told over and over again, dude,
you're not healed yet. You're not healed. And
I'm like, no. I'm, you know, it's I'm
not sitting there thinking about my ex, anything
like that. But what I didn't realize was
there was still trauma from
the the the entire, like, the hearing because
if it gets ugly, like, your dirty laundry
is out there in the open and I'm
I'm sure you have seen your share of
nasty cases where
the other the opposing counsel,
their job is to poke and prod at
you Right. On stand.
Okay. And so, you know, there there's there's
the the whole experience is
is traumatic. Right? Right.
Dealing with the amicus attorney, dealing with this,
dealing with Right? So So so so so
so you said okay, you didn't realize that
there was some trauma there. Now
do you see that the communities contribute to
the trauma? Absolutely. I mean, like you said,
there's so much tribute to the trauma?
Absolutely. I mean Yeah. Like you said there's
so much stigma Yeah. Behind getting divorced. Mhmm.
There's so much blame on the man or
even the woman and there's no support system.
Right? Men, for some reason, we go into
our cave. Mhmm. We're not coming out there.
We're not seeking support. We're not talking to
other men who have been divorced,
stigmatized,
but also there's no support from the community
either. Many massages don't want to talk about
this topic. There's, you know, the d's. They
don't want to talk about the d's. They
don't want to talk about drugs. They don't
want to talk about divorce. Mhmm. They don't
wanna talk about these real issues that everybody
is going through. Why do you think that
is? I think they think that if you
talk about divorce, it's gonna increase the rate
of divorce. I think that's the mentality 100%.
Yes. That that these massages have or these
institutions have. And divorce is a bad thing,
point blank, to the Exactly. If divorce is
a bad thing, If we don't talk about
it, maybe it'll go away. If we don't
talk about it, it'll go under the rug
and maybe that'll solve the problem. Mhmm. Right?
Okay. But you you mention, and I've seen
this with sisters just to be totally honest,
and with brothers since you have some of
these red pill movements.
Would you advise, would you think, brothers, divorced
brothers to get around only divorced brothers? It's
not about getting around or making them your
friends, but having a support group
to let you know that, like, this is
what is going to happen. Right? Your lawyer
is gonna tell you the legal side of
things. Right? And advise you on, okay, this
is what's gonna happen to your money. This
is what's gonna happen to your kids. Kids.
But you need a group of guys to
talk about the reality of, hey, every night
you used to come home from work. Mhmm.
You used to see your kids, and you're
not gonna see your kids anymore for weeks
at a time. Oh, man. Every man looks
forward to coming home. Even if they worked
8 hours, you get that 2 hours with
your kids, you get to play with them,
see them, put them to sleep,
and that's what you look forward to. And
just missing that out and not having somebody
to talk to about that can be traumatizing.
Yeah, man. I mean I I remember those
brothers saying, you know, he goes to the
masjid
and he's and he's he stays in that
city because of his kids, which is commendable,
man. You know?
But it does
hurt, you know, to go to the masjid,
to see his kids, and to leave without
them. A lot of them. A lot of
them. A lot of them.
So that that that that's rough. I mean,
you mentioned on 1 of your videos
the toxic divorce video,
and you talked about you'd use the term
the
or something that come in the picture, they
get involved. What what what is that? Can
you
So I think I was talking about the
other people around. Uh-huh. Right? What they try
to do is they put fuel in the
fire. This this argument is between husband and
wife. Right? Okay. And then you have the
wife's parents coming in, you have the husband's
parents coming in putting more fuel in the
fire, and instead of trying to help them
resolve it, they're taking their side and making
things much worse. Okay. Firstly, do you all
advise
from a legal perspective, from even psychological perspective,
for
the mother, father, friends to get involved?
And if so,
at what time? I think I think it's
a case by case, but I've seen situations
where a husband and wife
were like just on the track of an
amicable divorce
And then family got involved,
and they got kind of pushed and prodded
and said, oh, you're gonna take that. You're
gonna don't you know how much she put
you through? Don't you know how much she
put you through? And then they lawyer up,
and then it's just you know? And they
were so close. Like, III literally plead with
my clients, please don't go this route because
Go to the route of what? Of of,
like, just duking it out in court unnecessarily.
You know? That money can go to sending
your kid to Harvard or something. Right? That's
how much we drop on. Otherwise, you're sending
the lawyer's kid to Harvard. Yeah. Exactly. Oh.
Say that again, please. Just say it again.
How did they call it? No. That's the
that's the big problem is that through all
of this animosity and this court fighting, instead
of the money going to your kid's college,
you're paying for the lawyer's kid's college.
SubhanAllah. SubhanAllah.
And to the point of Yeah. The parents
being involved. Again, we are supposed to refer
to a mediator. We're supposed to get people
involved, have them talk so that we can
try to resolve things,
but only if they're actually helping you trying
to resolve problems rather than,
you know, making the problems worse. So I
would say that if your parents or your
family is there to help support you and
help you minimize
the fighting Mhmm. Please have them involved. But
if they're the ones who are making things
go, they're the ones racking the bills up,
then maybe that's not a good person to
be involved in the case. Okay. Then what
does a man do when he sees the
mother-in-law
getting in their business? Because this is
what happened or the sister-in-law
getting their in getting their business. You you're
gonna take that from your husband? After all,
you've raised his kids, so on and so
forth, or
his mother
getting in their business.
How does he as a man
I don't want to say embody masculinity, but
but
maintain the integrity
of cordiality between them, which is taqwa. Again,
this is why taqwa's mentioned so much.
What should he do at this moment at
that time when he sees people getting involved
and and they're making
statements that do not
lead to any type of cordiality or a
healthy divorce to Sadiq Khan Beyhsan, right? Mhmm.
So I think it depends on which stage
in the game you're in. Right? Like, if
you're in during marriage, I think Usman would
be better to answer. But if you're in
the divorce stage and now they're getting involved,
you are you almost are helpless in that
situation. Right? Because once the divorce starts, you
lawyered up,
there's barely any communication happening now. All the
communication is happening through the lawyer and you
have no control
as to who has your
wife or ex wife to be's ear at
that point. So you can't stop who's putting
anything into their ears or putting anything to
their head at that point. That problem has
to be addressed during the marriage. Mhmm. But
you can you can stop, like, people from
putting stuff in your ear. Yeah. Right? Exactly.
You know? Right. Because you're you're right. Like,
when when when you're actually in the thick
of it, you're advised not to talk to
the other party Yeah. At all. Right? Or
anybody from from from that person's family. Right?
Okay. So, yeah, we're gonna get to the
the the corporate because I really wanna talk
about that lawyer up, you know, when, where,
what, and why. Right?
Yeah.
No. For real, like, okay.
You you think the divorce is the right
thing to do.
You go to your therapist. The therapist is
you like just like what you said, the
the the therapist pleads for them not to
do
it, but
let's be honest, the guy
helpless man does not work. Like, a man
does not want to feel helpless. Right. Especially
if he was a provider. I paid all
this money
and then you are just going to threaten
me with the kids. Going to threaten me
with this. You're going to threaten me. Okay.
He goes ahead and gets the divorce.
Right? Now people are in his ear, you
know, you need to take the kids, you
need to take or the sisters a lot
of times, which I've heard a lot of
times, take him for everything that he has.
Right?
Psychologically,
at that moment, in the process, he said
the talaq, they're going through with it.
This is when sometimes Well, numerous times I've
heard
brothers say,
man, I've never seen this side of her.
Yeah. Or or of the family. I've never
seen it. I was close to my mother-in-law.
I was close to my father-in-law. Now all
of a sudden, they forgot all the that
I did and so on. Our egos get
in the way. So at the man at
that moment, like,
does he need a little ego to protect
himself?
Set your boundaries Okay. Right? But keep taqwa
at the forefront.
Right. So, you you know, when when when
when I when I plead with couples, it's
not that I'm pleading with them not to
get a divorce. I wanna make that clear.
There are some couples who, honestly, it is
better that they get a divorce. Absolutely. Okay.
Not that we're encouraging that. Obviously, we try
our best to, you know, keep healthy relationships.
But sometimes when it's not working out, it's
best sometimes for the children even if the
couple separate. But I will always push for
them to take an amicable route. Mhmm. Because
at the end of the day, and and
the ladies, you've seen this a lot, your
kids, when they grow up, they do not
care who was right or wrong. They don't
even wanna hear it. They do not care.
They just want normalcy.
And you are putting them in a situation
where, like, even if it's amicable, for a
child to have that instability of going from
1 house to another, from 1 house to
another. Right? Like, grow up
and I'm talking to the parents, grow up
and do right for your kid. You know,
that's that's where
the over here translates into swallowing your pride
Mhmm. And looking at what's important. Because believe
me, your kids will thank you later. You
know it's interesting you said grow up and
be do as amicable for your kid
whether your kid is the guy going through
the divorce.
Mhmm. Yeah. The parents, right? The parent the
the parents
as well. I have seen, alhamdulillah, I don't
I don't want to portray that like everything
is like horrible. I've seen some amazing parents
who will,
sometimes they'll stick up for their their daughter-in-law
or or they'll stick up for their son-in-law
and say, look, this is wrong. You know,
it doesn't matter if you're my blood. Right
is right, wrong is wrong. I have to
answer to Allah.
It's few and far between, but I immensely
respect people who do that because Taqwa is
at the forefront of their decision making. Masha'allah.
And to the helpless man point, I think
you have to pick your battles. Mhmm. Right?
The battle of your money being divided
doesn't make sense to fight because that's the
law. Unless you got a prenup,
too bad. Right? But when it comes to
the kids, I would tell every man that
you should fight, that you should put in
the effort to try to get as much
time with your kids as possible Mhmm. Because
that's gonna impact the future of the kids.
There's, I think you might have mentioned in
this podcast as well, the boy crisis.
Right? There's a book about the impact that
a child has when the father's not involved
in their life. Your dad. So for nothing
else,
you should fight, a man should fight to
have his kids as much as possible because
that's gonna have a great impact on the
child's life. So I would say
fight about that,
stand up for that, have an ego quote
unquote when it relates to that issue. When
it comes to the financial issue, you might
be throwing
you know, money in the fire because the
law of the land is going to divide
everything. It's gonna have alimony. It's gonna have
child support unless, of course, you dealt with
that prenup. So I think you have to
pick and choose your battles. Alright. You mentioned
a number of of, I think it was
another language. Sorry, Angela. Sorry. But let's go
ahead and dip into it. Let's go ahead
and dive into it, man.
The court system, lawyers.
Firstly,
let's start because, masha'Allah, you have this nikaf
master class and I think you've done some
stuff
with Surbah Yeah. Institute, mashaAllah. Some great work
with premarital,
post
marital
Yeah. Counseling. Right?
When
should a man
lawyer up?
It really depends
therapist's perspective. Mhmm. If you're coming to me,
you're not coming to me to fix your
marriage. You're coming to me because you need
to protect your money, you need to protect
your children.
So I personally,
I would say the sooner the better. And
I know that sounds so bad because I've
had clients come to me 3 years before
the divorce,
men male or female,
preparing for the divorce. Right? So that I
can coach them in terms of how do
you set up the situation so that you
can get as much custody as possible? How
do we set up the situation so that
we can minimize the impact on your finances
or lower the alimony payment?
Strategically,
the sooner you talk to me prior to
the divorce,
the easier and better the divorce can go.
The problem
but there's another side to it. Okay? The
problem in the Muslim community is that we
go to the lawyers
right when we fight.
Okay. As soon as the fight happens, we
go to the lawyer,
emotions are high, and then that emotion carries
through in the case. Non Muslims on the
other hand, they'll separate first.
They'll separate, go on with their life, they'll
come up with their own schedules,
all of that. And then 6 months later,
a year later, they'll go to the lawyers
to formalize things. So there's like a balance
between strategy
and making sure that your emotions don't necessarily
drive the case. So so can I ask
you a question? Like, do you see cases
where somebody is not sure that they're gonna
divorce or not? Like, look, I'm on the
fence, but I just wanna be informed. So
let me go talk to a lawyer.
I I have a gut feeling. It's not
it it might go south. It might not.
100%. Yeah. So most so let's say in
a given year, you have 500 consultations.
Of those 500 consultations, maybe a 175
will sign up. Okay. Right? So there's still
a rate of
people just coming in. They're unhappy in their
marriage, and I mean that talks a lot
about the status and the well-being of marriages
right now. But
that many people are unhappy or thinking about
divorce. So, yeah, you'll have a vast majority
of people just wanting
advice. What should I do with my finances?
How does this work? How does that work?
And they end up never divorcing or they
end up divorcing many years later.
I think that
people are interested in what impact it could
have and then also start preparing their finances
for that
event. Does it ever discourage people from divorcing?
A 100%. Like, you know, they look at
all the, oh my god, I have to
go through this, this, and this. Like 100%.
But is that healthy? That's what I'm saying.
Like, is that healthy? Right? Because it's like
then you're you're you're you feel like you're
trapped in a marriage. Right? And and, you
know, there is a reality that I mean,
even even with therapy, like, what can truly
mentally prepare you as a father or even
as a mother for not being able to,
like, kiss your kids every night before they
go to bed? Nothing will mentally prepare you
for that. No. That's good. You know? Okay.
And and and sometimes people are kind of
held at gunpoint. I've I've I've seen,
you know, fathers who are kind of like,
look, I'm I'm in a miserable marriage, I'm
not happy, I've tried everything,
but just I cannot fathom not seeing my
kid every night. And so I will put
up with whatever. But then it just eats
away at you, you know? And then, unfortunately,
it makes you the parent you don't want
to be. Okay. What are some of the
things I do? Well, I mean, you get
irritable. You you you lose your patience if
you're not happy, if you're not, you know,
obviously you're never going to be the best
version of yourself. Right? But but if you're
not mentally sound and stable, how are you
gonna be there for your family? Being a
father is 1 of the most difficult jobs
on the planet. Right? Mhmm. You have to
balance everything. You work hard
and, you know, we spoke about this, last
time. You work hard and and, you know,
what puts a smile on your face is
seeing everybody else around you happy. Oh, wow.
We have this, like, innate altruism, at least
real men have this innate altruism. There's a
thought in them that we just we we
wanna see our family happy. Right? Yes. But,
like,
if you are just
constantly being beat down beat down beat down,
eventually, we're all human. It's gonna it's gonna
chip away at you. And then that's when
you get short with the kids. That's when
you,
you might not even be, you know, that
present with the kids. So what you were
trying to achieve by staying in your child's
life,
you know,
you you you like, it might backfire out
of you. You know what I'm saying? Like,
so yeah. You're not the best parent you
could be at that time. Just to kinda
get back on it. It's gonna go back
from between court and legal and legal and,
psychological here.
When you find the blame game
between the husband and wife,
you know, husband is abusive.
Wife, she's narcissistic.
Okay? The the husband
is is really irritated with the wife that
will not allow him to see the kids
on the days he's supposed to and or,
you know, he doesn't wanna go through this
process, strenuous process of paying for the lawyer,
the retention. He doesn't have the kind of
money,
and the wife, with her big family and
his small family,
there's so much pressure on him.
He just doesn't want to deal with it,
but he's trapped.
He hasn't reached out to anybody or he's
reached out to whichever numerous times, you know,
and this is a message to imams as
well.
We as imams, you know, we have a
lot on our plate, but it's very important
to know what you sign up for within
your imamship.
Right? Like, you know, there's certain imams that
look, I'll deal with the youth, I can't
deal with marriages. It's it's fine to do
that. Believe in yourself and know what you
can provide to a community.
But you'll see sometimes, imam, that do sign
up for this, they don't respond
to a number of these men, right, to
where they come disenchanted with the masjid. Yeah.
So he's alone, the wife is, you know,
let's say let hypothetically speaking, the wife is
someone that is
narcissistic and oppressive and she doesn't allow them
to see the kids, but
most importantly,
she's not practicing.
She's not practicing the faith.
So you're talking about psychologically because III wanna
know from the Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna
we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there.
From III mean, it's 1 of those things
that, like, you know, once that's passed, you
can only control yourself. Right? And you can
only control what you can do. And and
sometimes, like, you know, you you you just
have keep that balance and say, like, okay,
what do I have control over on the
days the child is with me? I take
him to the masjid. I try and be
the best example.
And part of being that best example is
even if you know the mother is not
the most practicing,
I will never bad mouth his mother in
front of him because that's the example of
a true Muslim. Because if I let my
ego get the best of me, I'm gonna
I need somebody to vent to. And if
I don't have bros to, you know, vent
to it, I've seen this so much. Right?
I'm gonna vent to who? My child. Who
doesn't wanna hear it in the first place?
You know what I'm saying? Right? That, oh,
like, I can't believe your and sometimes it's,
like, it's not direct. It's kind of, like,
you know, under your breath, underhanded, just like,
oh, but your mother did this, or, of
course, she forgot this. Of course, she didn't
take you to the masjid. Of course, you
know right? And the kids how does the
kids suffer from that? Well, you know, there
there is this like dichotomy now in their
in their mind. They're like, wait a minute,
I'm supposed to love my mother. I'm supposed
to love my mother. I don't want to
choose sides, but now if I don't show
a certain amount of anger and frustration towards
1 parent to the other, oh my god,
am I betraying my father? Am I betraying
my mother?
Is such a tough
such a tough position for a child. And,
you know, this is this is why I
really,
you know, we we have to do better
as parents. What are we gonna say to
Allah on the day of judgment? How do
we it's not just about physical abuse but
this is emotional abuse, Allah. No child wants
to be put in that position. And we
do it sometimes knowingly, sometimes we do it
unknowingly.
Right? I mean, mediators say this a lot,
but I mean, I I wholeheartedly believe that
even if you hate your ex with all
your heart, you need to show that child
that your mother is the best mother.
Yeah. Because that's your mom.
You want him to grow up hating his
mom because you can't
deal with your emotions?
And these kids, like, they they're playing 2
sides. Right? There's they're a certain way at
mom's house. There's a certain way at dad's
house. They have to appease dad when they're
with dad. They have to appease mom Yeah.
When they're with mom. And so just imagine
that
that stress and the trauma on the child
having to live 2 separate lives Yeah. Because
it's it's and they want the love of
both. They want the love of dad. They
want the love of mom. And so they're
catering to them in different ways Yeah. When
they're with each parent. So what what does
he do? Okay. So for instance, he's going
through that and he knows he shouldn't,
you know, bad mouth his mother.
But mother because you mentioned we mentioned the
taqwa piece here. Right? But the mom's not
she's not she's she she left she left
the dean. Sometimes I've seen. No.
So that may be a lot on him
because he's still being bad mouthed.
Yeah.
You know, hence, I mentioned in the introduction,
I met a guy at the gym, and
I told the guy, keep coming here. You
know, gym sessions to me is like that's
that's where I can really, really help a
lot of these guys because that physical exertion,
as I've seen in young boys, it's so
healthy for the man to where in between
sets,
he's venting. In between sets, he's like, yo,
man. Look, man. This happened last week. Yeah.
And then he wants to hear from somebody,
so the gym is like a cave as
well. So I think it's important for, you
know, men to to come together and at
least take a walk on the park. Like
we mentioned, just have a cave. It doesn't
have to be a stationary place, but it's
spending time with each other to talk about.
When when when you go through,
the trauma of divorce and you're going through,
like, these these depressive like symptoms, right, 1
of the
1 of the most curative factors to depression
is something known as the internal locus of
control. And what that means is basically there's
something that I can do about it. So,
the rule of thumb is you do the
opposite of what depression is telling you. Depression
tells you to stay at home, to be
isolated. No. You go out. You make you
make sheikh Abdullah. You go, you work out,
you talk to people, you know. Mhmm. So,
sometimes you have to push through, you have
to force yourself to do it. Mhmm. But
eventually,
you know, eventually it gets better. And and
and to and to and to your piece
about like, you know, the the kids like
what do you do if, okay, I'm trying
to do my best but the other person
is not, I can't control the other person.
Eventually,
right, you make dua, eventually the child will
see it. And sometimes it's later. Sometimes we
plant the seed and,
you know, III work with
children of divorce, well, who are young adults
now. Right? And later they
they they will say like I grew up
thinking 1 parent was the villain and now
my eyes are open, right?
And and you know, they they they see
it eventually. They see, you know what,
like, dad never said anything bad about mom.
Mhmm. And now I see it. Now I
see the wisdom. Maybe when they're 30, 40
they they see it. And, you know, IIIII
saw this on, like, some Instagram post or
something where,
like, life is short with our kids, father.
The majority of of the time that we
follow gives us long life that we're gonna
spend with our kids is actually when they're
adults.
Right?
Mhmm. And so, you know, eventually it'll click.
You know, you do your part. Yeah. I
remember it reminds me, I'm I was on
the phone with this convert, brother, brother that
converted to Islam,
and there was a lot of wind in
the background.
I'm like, you you okay? He's like, yeah,
yeah, and he sounded a little distressed.
I'm like, where are you going?
He's like, I'm gonna go see my dad.
Oh, okay. He's like, nah, man. You don't
understand, man. And this is when he opened
up. He was like he sounded distressed and
saddened.
He's, like, yeah, man. My mom gave me
this whole false narrative of my father for
20
years, bro. Yeah. I see that. He said,
now I'm gonna go see him and, you
know, I said, did your mom admit it?
He's like, yeah. I I squeezed it. I
got it out of her because when I
finally met my dad, who I thought wasn't
around,
she finally admitted it.
The first thing I told him, man and
that's why the hadith of the prophet is
so sotokos sallam,
and he he
lives the most right of me, my mother,
my mother, your mother, your mother and your
father.
The first thing I told him, I said
just forgive your mom, man. Yeah. And that's
the true man right there, man. You just
gotta forgive your mom. You know what I'm
saying?
You know, let's let's let's just be totally
honest. Maybe I don't know. I'm not saying
I'm not saying you're father, brother. You know
who you are. You know, it was probably
which happened in her brother's family.
He cheated on his mom
way back then,
and she and I'm not gonna say like
she hasn't got over it. I don't mean
to belittle that at all. It's Islamically, it's
impermissible
to cheat on your wife, period.
But it's something that, you know, it carried
over to the child to where there was
a narrative about about dad, you know. And,
just like you said, when he grew up,
he was able to he was able to
distinguish and see, okay, mom was affected by
this, etcetera. So, yeah, that's a huge point.
So we're talking about the man
because I was gonna ask you Mhmm. Have
you ever and this may sound like an
oxymoron. It may sound so counterintuitive,
but I still I was asked this 1
time, have this is gonna be weird.
Have you ever met a man that wanted
to lawyer up
in the premarital
stage?
Yeah. I mean, I think that's actually a
smart thing to do.
So Okay. The reason why is the reason
you would get a lawyer in the premarital
stage is for a prenuptial agreement. I don't
see any other reason but for
premarital. A divorce lawyer.
Yeah. Divorce lawyers help with prenuptial too.
Okay. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. So as a divorce
lawyer, a lot of my work or some
of my work and it's increasing as we're
trying to educate the community is doing prenuptial
work and putting prenuptial contracts in place,
so that can dictate how the marriage rules.
But to your question about does somebody talk
about divorce
in the premarital stage, I haven't necessarily had
that,
just directly, hey, what would happen if I
divorce this girl? I think they would approach
me in the prematal stage to get a
prenup.
Okay. Okay. Now let's dive into that. Now
it reminds me, there was a there
was
a.
He
was reciting the verses of at the
at the.
Preparation? I don't know.
That was weird. That's the first thing. Yeah.
IIII was, there was a wedding where, someone,
like, you know, in the beginning, like, when
they're reciting Quran, they recite.
You know? And it's like, this is worse.
You know? What was he trying to say
about marriage? Is that, like, you watch Married
with Children from the past? Uh-huh.
Love and marriage.
No. But okay. So so prenuptial agreements. I
remember
I was talking to a different of ours,
Masha'Allah,
and it really hit me about a year
or 2 ago, some time ago, like, okay.
This issue of prenuptial agreements needs to be
talked about within the Muslim community.
There needs to be education.
I think initially amongst the scholars and the
imams, it needs to be talked about at
these
scholars conferences Yes. What a prenup is,
you know, the the Islamic validity of it.
Is it halal, right? Is it halal? So
you get halal, right? Right. Where do we
find the taghrij of it? Like the the
also of it? Is there an also, is
there a foundational presence within the authoritative text?
Firstly, if you can introduce
to to the brothers and sisters as well
what a prenup is,
and why it is something to be heavily
considered
for the man
upon marriage. I think prenups are For the
woman. Yeah. 100%. I think prenups are very
important
in us as Muslims living here. Okay? And
this question about whether it's halal or not
What is it? What is it though? What
is a prenup? Sure. A prenuptial agreement is
an agreement that a husband and wife sign
prior to marriage
to dictate what happens if you get divorced.
Okay. Right? What's going to happen to your
property?
What's going to happen to alimony?
And specifically for Muslims
to have an enforceable provision
for Mahar to be enforced. Because when you
sign this nikah contract at the masjid, right,
it's like a 1 page thing. Mhmm. That's
usually not enforced in court. So you could
have a $50, 000 Mahar, you put that
on the nikah contract,
and you go and take it to a
judge, enforce this, they're gonna say, wait, this
doesn't count as a prenuptial agreement because there's
certain formalities
that have to be considered when you're doing
a prenuptial agreement. For example,
you you don't want to have duress,
meaning that you don't wanna have any pressure
around signing it, but this paper is being
signed in the presence of all these people.
Everybody's dressed up. They flew from all over
the country, and you're signing this NECA contract.
Okay. The other element might be financial disclosure.
Right?
Where both parties understand the financial situation of
each party. But again, when you're signing this
contract, you have no idea. And then 3rd
is going to be some type of representation.
Right? So attorney representation usually
is going to make this prenuptial agreement strong.
So both sides having a lawyer to advise
you of what your rights are,
what rights are you giving up. So these
are the 3 elements, duress,
financial disclosure, and attorney representation.
All 3 of those things are not there
when you're signing this 1 page in a
contract.
Mhmm. Right? So that's that's what a prenuptial
agreement is.
Now,
the important thing to understand is
the concept of marriage
versus the concept of nikah.
Because those are 2 different things. Right. Right?
You have an Islamic institution
and you have this western institution. Mhmm. Okay?
In this western institution there's a few
common things that take place. Number 1 is
when you get married in the west
you are what they call or what I
call unified.
It's unity theory.
Right? So much so that that the man
or the woman takes the man's last name.
Yeah. Right? So you become 1. Uh-huh.
And so what happens is that from the
date of marriage, anything
either party owns
belongs to both of them. Marital property Mhmm.
Belongs to both of them. So it doesn't
matter if you have a retirement account in
your name, it doesn't matter if she has
a savings account in her name, it doesn't
matter whose name is on the title,
it matters when did you acquire
it. Okay? So that's 1 very big concept
that is different than
marriage versus nikah.
Right? In our concept of,
you know, marriage,
your property is yours, your property is yours.
There's certain responsibilities
that take place, but it's not like magically
your money becomes his money or Islamically.
Islamically speaking. So that's a very big difference
between
Islamic marriage and marriage in the west.
And then the other difference might be alimony.
Right? Okay. In in the western system,
you might have
alimony, which is payments made
well after the divorce is over. Okay. Okay?
So alimony is? Alimony is payments made by
the higher earner
to the lower earner
to
either compensate them for,
you know, being a housewife for example, or
to help them get back on their feet.
So it's payments for the ex spouse. Okay.
Right? So this prenuptial agreement
can dictate how marital property is defined. Right?
How our property is going to be divided
when we divorce. Okay. It can define
is there going to be alimony, how much
alimony is there going to be?
And then finally for sisters especially
is to make sure that your Mahr is
actually enforced.
So these are the 3 reasons why
I make sure that people should have prenups
because instead of the state defining
your marriage
and how your marriage should operate and how
your divorce should operate, you are taking that
into your own hands and dictating,
look, I have this house, you have this
house, I have this business,
you have this car.
Do you believe this is ours? Do you
believe it's yours? Do you believe it's mine?
So you have this discussion upfront in the
marriage
Mhmm. To make sure that when you hate
each other,
Allah protect us Amen. That that doesn't impact
how all of this gets divided. So it's
having a conversation
when you still love each other
and also taking the power out of the
state. Sheikh Joe, a mutual friend of ours,
he talks about how
sovereignty has been taken out of the family
Mhmm. And put into the state. Oh, no
doubt. And so with the prenup, we're taking
back some of that sovereignty. And it depends
on what state you're in. Right? Yeah. I
mean, depending on the state you're in. By
the way, how how enforceable are prenups?
There there's a misconception that they're unfortunately, you
could get them thrown out. Every prenup that
I've dealt with, except for maybe 1 in
the last 10 years, has been enforced.
Yeah. There was 1, the 1 that didn't
get enforced was they basically said that the
imam gets to decide whether we get to
divorce or not. Oh. So I was thinking.
Obviously that's not gonna get, you know, enforced,
but everything else dealing with money,
dealing with, alimony
has been enforced in my experience. Yeah. But
I I love the way that you explained
it because 1 of the huge misconceptions Yeah.
Is that, prenup only benefits the man. Right?
That's 1. And and and and I I
love how you kind of redirected it back
to, like, this is giving you autonomy, taking
an autonomy away from the state. Right? Because
there I'm sure you've heard all of the
negative connotations around prenup. Nup. Oh, like, if
we're already talking about money, if we're already
fighting about it, what will you know, what's
the point of getting married? As you're explaining
this, Suhanna, I'm thinking, like, you know, in
premarital counseling, we we we have people ask
the important questions, including finances, how you know,
roles, responsibilities,
expectations, so on. Something like a prenup will
really force you, I guess, to get into
the nitty gritty of things that you wouldn't
ask otherwise. Exactly. What are the top reasons
for divorce?
Finances,
in laws, addictions.
So finances being 1 of the biggest reasons
for divorce, if you can tackle that issue
upfront about expectations
of what this money is going to mean.
Right?
As much as
marriage is a romantic
institution,
it's more of a practical institution of finances
and I would even argue that marriage should
not be a romantic institution upon marriage because
even in the books of Filk, it's not
about it's about compatibility. To the degree you'd
find like in books of Filk,
right? You know, the person that deals with
iron. You know, it's it's about compatibility.
Right? You know, even if Simon, I was
sitting with a I think I've mentioned this
before with with a group of sisters in
the class, you know, saying, you know, love
is not a condition for marriage. That is
not Islamic. Right. Right. Yeah. You should not
be in love where you get you don't
even know the sister. Yeah. But, I mean,
now realistically speaking, pragmatically speaking, I met her
in college. There is an emotional connection. We
both forget the MSA. It's halal. It's great.
But still there's still like, if you're sitting
together alone in the MSA office, like, hey.
I gotta go do something, which is get
out the office. Right? So you should maintain
that barrier
to maintain the integrity of her emotional investment
and the integrity of your
testosterone.
Right. Right. Right. So when looking at this
particularly
and that's why, you know, I was mentioning
the books of it's more of like business.
Mhmm. She's not a commodity.
Right? But she is someone that is honored.
She is someone's daughter
that the guardianship is literally being transferred over
to you. That's right.
Right? That's why I tell young men, like,
look. The guardianship is gonna be yours now.
Yes. The father is kinda left indirectly helpless
to a degree, but he's watching from afar
with the bird's eye view. Right? Yeah. But
he has to know it's just to close
his eyes at the same time.
The word that comes to my mind for
a man that's gonna introduce prenuptial agreements while
he's sitting with this man that he hopes
to be his father-in-law Yeah. Is courage.
Because,
I mean, this is gonna be an era
where it's gonna be introduced a lot. Yeah.
Yeah. And moms are probably not wanna gonna
wanna hear it
to a degree. But most of the prenups
in the last 2 years that have come
to me have come from sisters. Wow. Sisters
are the ones who
they have their career, they're making good money
Okay. And they want to make sure that
their money is protected.
Okay. I'm telling you that right now our
sisters are killing the guys when it comes
to
financial wellness and, you know, education and being
actual go getters versus a lot of the
men Right. Unfortunately. Is that a problem? It's
a big problem. It's a big problem. It's
a big problem for men, not for women.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No.
Because this this is an issue. This is
an issue because you find, okay, the sister's
getting educated. Great. You You'll find some sisters
that get that get educated
to to have something on the back burner
Mhmm. Just in case I get a divorce.
Yeah. I know that's a good way to
approach it, but you do not want a
sister that's divorced and has nothing and 3
kids and the guy is a loser Yeah.
And he's not taking care of her because
they didn't sign a prenup or whatever the
case may be.
You know, he didn't come from his country,
whatever the case may be. So he doesn't
know or she doesn't know. Right? The sisters
that are educated and that are making a
lot of money,
which is good but then at the same
time you said it's bad for brothers because
the brother may not be the
higher Yeah. Earner? Is that the Yeah. They
might not be the higher earner. You might
not get the respect that you need. From
what?
The brother might not get the respect he
needs from the wife. Why? Because he's making
less money than her and she can now
make the decisions and she's the 1 paying
for everything.
Or she's not getting that financial benefit from
the husband. Okay. Let's let's let's not take
it for the hajdas. Let's just stop here
real quick because No. I'm not talking. That's
why I wanna get No. You're good. You're
good. Now do you find
if she's the higher earner,
is she paying the like, is that all
that money she's making going into her purse?
Or is she,
okay, I'll take care of this bill because
I'm making more. Okay, I'll take care of
this. Do you find that at the time
of divorce when stuff comes out, she's like,
look, I was paying this and you should
have been paying for it. I don't care
if you make less. Does that Yeah. I
mean, it's a it's a favor.
If the wife is making more money and
she ends up paying for something, if she
ends up paying for something, it's a favor.
Right? And that favor needs to be recompensed
if the marriage falls apart. So, I mean,
in terms of the psychology of it. Right.
So to answer your question, I don't see
necessarily
the women paying for the mortgage and paying
for the utilities and paying for all of
that.
Rather, it's paying for the luxuries. Right? It's
paying for the vacation or it's paying for
something, you know, whatever random things there are,
But the bulk is still the man is
paying. Mhmm. Whatever the wife pays usually ends
up being a favor upon Mhmm. The husband.
Mhmm. Then why was it a problem for
him? Where has it become a problem? It
becomes a problem for him because if he's
unable to provide the lifestyle that she wants,
he's not getting the respect from her that
he desires
because he's not
being a man in her eyes, I feel
like. Mhmm. Right. So
so because I don't want this to be
misconstrued Mhmm.
As,
like women being educated, women earning a lot
of money,
is the issue. That is a problem. Yeah.
Because we hear that a lot and that's
that's not true. Right? You know, Khadija had
wealth, right? Mhmm. It's it's it's it's not
about that. But if you, as a man
or woman,
use or weaponize your wealth and your education,
that's the problem. It's not a money problem.
Whether whether you make a 100 k or
600 k, it's a you problem. That's your
ego. Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? If
you weaponize it. And I I, you know,
I I've I've seen, you know, women who
are at the 7 figure salary, who are
married to men, who are not making as
much, but, you know, we spoke about this
idea of hustle. The man hustles,
and she respects him and she gives him
you know, he feels extremely respected because she's
like, it's not about a monetary value, but
it's what I what I see in this
guy. I feel safe. He you know you
know what I'm saying? Like That's a good
point. Yeah. Because, of course, she's gonna feel
better if she's paying the bills. Yeah. And
sometimes sometimes guys,
you know,
and and this is really antithetical to
to manhood,
are okay with that in the sense of,
like, it's okay. I can kind of, you
know, hit the brakes a little bit on
my responsibility. You know? That's a problem. No.
No. No. You you you, like, you know,
even if you're a plumber and your wife
is a neurosurgeon,
you know, you you you find a way.
Right? Yeah. And then as as far as,
like, you know, meeting her needs, I mean,
that's that's why, like, you you said, like,
you know, a baker shouldn't be married to,
like, a Mhmm. Ironsmith or something. Right? Yeah.
I mean, compatibility does have a role. There's
a cultural nuance to it. There's a societal
nuance to it. I think that should be
considered.
I mean, you know, you find men say,
and and, you know, you'll find men say,
you know, the woman should know her place,
but then at the same time, the man
should know his place as well. And I
think knowing their place has relevance in saying
it, but sometimes it can be used for
toxicity on either side. Right. Right. And I
I forgot who mentioned it, but once people
know their lane stay in their lane, there
won't be any accidents. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
So okay. So when talking about this prenup,
right, so okay. The the the man introduces
this, in
a respectable fashion when he's sitting with
the father-in-law?
When should he introduce this if he's looking
to get married for our young collegiates out
there. So I think I think that it
shouldn't come as just a topic of prenuptial
agreement. I think it needs to come through
the premarital counseling.
Right? And I think that, Masha, you know,
Sohaba,
Ehsankar, there's so many different institutions
that have made this part of their premarital
counseling sessions Excellent. Where as part of the
financial discussion is, hey, have you thought about
a prenuptial agreement? So that the thought is
not born
by either of the spouses. Mhmm. The thought
is born by a third party. I think
that's that's important, and I think that's gonna
be the way that this grows a little
bit is if the imams, the the counselors,
and the community are the ones who are
kind of bringing this up. In terms of,
you know, if you're in that situation where
you didn't have that, I think as part
of the Mahar discussions, a prenup should be
brought up or
bring it up in the other way that,
hey,
your your daughter you're looking for a $25,
000 Mahar. Well, yeah, we can sign this
agreement, but, hey, did you know that this
is not gonna be enforceable?
This is the way to get it enforceable
is through a prenup. And then that prenup
can then bring up the discussions
of Mahara enforceability,
property, and everything else. Oh, that's how she
can get protected. Yeah. Right. That's that's that's
that's what I was saying, like the misconception.
I think this really helps so much in
It's just arms. You're debunking that like myth
that like it's only for for the guy.
I mean, I think, like you said, like,
from a from a larger scale, if we
if we standardize it, right, if we just
make it part of Yes. Like, I've seen
imams now kind of standardize this that, like,
I'm not going to marry you until you
go to premarital counseling. Right? Yeah. I'm I'm
that that's what I Yeah. Right. So so,
you know, just adding that on there, and
then on top of that, like and I
think this is, you know, a lesson for,
like, most therapists because I do a lot
of premedial counseling as well. Let's, you know,
make this part of of the process. A
module. A module within the whole Yeah. What
about
the brother?
And this has been
introduced to me or asked me numerous times
about brothers. He's an entrepreneur.
Started his business off, got his grind, you
know, in the midst of his grind, in
the midst of seeking the barakah, you know,
he marries his sister.
It's at the, you know, the infancy of
his business.
You know, while they're getting married, he
blows up, like, when the second within the
second year.
4th year comes around,
1 kid later,
doesn't work out. Just doesn't work out. It
gets, kinda ugly.
The wife religious wife, religious husband, they're both
practicing.
She decides to take the children.
He says, fine, you could take the children.
I just wanna see my kids.
You can see your kids.
It's fine.
But she wants a portion of the business.
Like you said, by default, when you get
married in the states, everything is mashuba. Everything
is together. Right? It's not like, you know,
Islamically, it's what was yours before. But she's
saying I'm gonna go to the court system
through the court system, and I'm going to
take I want half of the business. He's
like, you were not there when I was
grinding in the basement
with the swinging hit light, you know, and
nothing there and, you know, only had 1
item of clothing. You weren't there. Right? She's
like,
I was there taking care of your children.
I was there making the food for you
when you were
grinding whatever you're talking about. Yeah. I want
a portion. Mhmm.
Is that amicable? What what what what should
be considered here with the pizza? I think
the question would be, and there's a lot
of like legal implications here, but if if
the business was started prior to marriage,
it should retain its non marital nature throughout
the marriage. Now, when you say started, he
establishes LLC and all that? Okay. Here it
is. If he establishes LLC, he established the
business well before the marriage.
It grew, it grew, and then after marriage,
it started to grow more.
She may not get a portion of the
business like shares of the business. Okay. But
she can still benefit from the income that
is generated by that business. Right? She might
benefit from getting alimony. Okay. She might benefit
from getting extra child support.
So, the income may be considered,
but the asset may not get divided.
Now,
if
shares changed hands or, you know, there's some
other deal happening in between, that could add
some complexity.
But you have to divide an asset
based off its,
the actual ownership of it Mhmm. And the
income that's generated from it. Right. Right? So
those are 2 different questions. So in this
scenario, she would absolutely benefit from the income
being generated Mhmm. But she may not get
a share of the business if he was
if he maintained a non marital nature. Now
Okay. Again, it's also very important to have
a prenup to make that very clear that
hey, I started this business
and as this grows
that you're not going to get a share
of it, but yes, you can't stop anybody
from getting child support. You can't stop anybody
from getting the income
or the benefit of the income that's derived
from that business. Right. Okay. Okay. So that
that mashallah. Mashallah. Yeah. Now the issue of
post nump. Yeah.
How
credible is that and how often does that
work out? I mean, postnup is after the
marriage or the divorce, it gets pretty ugly.
Can you define what that is and and
Sure. Do you know what? So a post
nub is signing that same agreement,
but sometime after the marriage takes place. It
doesn't even have to be after divorce. Okay.
It could be
like, you know, 2, 3 years into it,
you hear 1 of our talks and it
says, hey, we should get a post up.
So you can get a post up right
now even if everything is fine and dandy.
Mhmm. Right? But most of the time however,
post ups come up when somebody's filed for
divorce
and it's like okay, this is way too
much.
I can't handle this.
Let's reconcile.
But we understand now that there's a lot
of financial implications with the divorce. So if
we ever get divorced,
let's sign an agreement to dictate what happens
if we end up getting divorced later. So
that's typically when I see post nubs happening
is
they filed, they're going down the road, they're
a little scared or they wanna reconcile and
it's like, alright, let's define our financial parameters
now that we understand that
what marital property is and we understand, you
know, what alimony and all of that is.
Have you found it hard for your husband
to introduce if we get divorced wife?
Not necessarily. Again, I think it depends on
the financial situation of the parties. Okay.
I mean if you have a housewife, yeah,
it's going to be a difficult conversation. But
if both parties are working, here the other
thing that happens is that when both parties
are working, let's say they both make
$80, 000 Okay. And they have the traditional,
setup where the the man's paying for, you
know, the house and everything like that. What
ends up happening after a few years is
that the wife has a very, very big
savings account
and the guy might have a modest savings
account. Right. So at that point, it actually
makes sense for the sister to have a
post nup to protect the savings that she's
accumulated over the years. Mhmm. Right? So,
you know, it's interesting that we keep on
thinking that post nups and pre nups are
bad for sisters, but in this day and
age when you have such a high
work rate for women, it makes more sense
for women.
Right. Exactly. To protect her assets as well.
Does she what she's received from her husband,
etcetera, etcetera. Received from her husband or from
her own earnings? From her own earnings. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
What about, you know, when
the man, you know, they get a divorce,
and they're going through that divorce process,
going to the lawyers. You mentioned something,
and this is where we're gonna need you
to chime in as well.
How
you will be paying for the lawyers'
children's
college.
We charge by the hour.
Yeah. Yes. Right? And so, I mean, a
typical case you might have, you know, a
3 to $5, 000 down payment.
Are you serious? Oh, that's not I've seen
more. I mean, there's 5. I've seen 10?
Yeah. Yeah. I see. I I my my,
retainer was 5. And that's just for the
lawyer. That's the start. Yeah. The amicus was
3. Yeah.
And then,
other therapists involved. Like, whatever the judge orders,
and you you don't have a choice at
that point. You know? So yeah. $5, 000
to start. Yeah. And that retainer,
there's different ways. But, basically, it's a prepayment
of services. Okay. Okay? And so the average
divorce okay. So if you have a typical
amicable divorce, maybe 1 or 2 issues, okay,
maybe you're looking at $10 over the course
of a year. But a lot of, unfortunately,
in the Muslim community
when you have high drama, you have, you
know, people trying to keep kids away, you
have, you know, shady money stuff happening,
30, 35, 40 is,
you know, not
not extreme,
for for the cost of a divorce. So
that's what I'm saying is that when you
are going through this system
and fighting about things,
it's going to cost you a lot of
lot of money. So instead of that money
going towards your kids, that's why I say
you're paying the lawyers
and the lawyers kids now gonna have a
nice car and go to college. Are divorced
lawyers vicious?
That's what we're paid for. I mean, that's
what okay. So, you know I'm I mean,
I mean That's what you're being hired for.
Right? My job is
to be a counselor and an advocate. So
when I'm talking to you 1 on 1,
you're in my office Mhmm. I'm trying to
say, hey, look, you should do this, you
should do that. And I'm trying to appeal
to their psychology and to who they are
and what their goals are. But when I'm
in court, they don't want me to be
fuzzy old me. They want me to be
a bulldog. Right? And so when I'm in
court, I have to show that aggression. I
have to show, you know, how much I
know about the law, cite cases, cite statutes,
tear down the other lawyer, tear down the
other side. Like that's what they're paying me
hourly for is to is to be strong
in court. So I think that
you have to be smart
as a divorce lawyer, but you also have
to be very aggressive. How does it work?
Because I mean, this is this is with
you too, you know. You have to make
that distinction between, okay, wanna say distinction. You're
trying to bring the synergy between psychology and
Islam.
Right? But then there are certain statutes depending
on what state you may be into where
you cannot,
you know,
be religious within your your your counsel or
your therapy.
Right?
How does it work for a divorce lawyer
if a sister comes to you
and she clearly wants to just clear him
out unjustly?
Or the brother comes to you and he's
not humble enough to mention that he was
abusive and he just wants
her to suffer? So the system
is supposed to the system is not good,
but the system my job is to put
the case up in front of the judge.
Okay? Mhmm. So I'm going to paint this
wonderful picture for my client.
The other side is gonna do the same
thing. They're gonna paint this wonderful picture. Mhmm.
And the judge is going to be the
1 to decide who's right or wrong. So
I'm not necessarily deciding who's right or wrong.
Mhmm. I'm just putting their case up in
a way that makes them look good or,
you know, obviously without lying, without,
you know, doing anything illegal or unethical,
but putting the best case forward so that
the judge now decides was he an abuser,
was he not an abuser,
to decide whether the kids should go with
him or not go with him. So I'm
not making the decision. The judge is making
that decision. So, yeah. Because this is Isn't
isn't I'm sorry. Isn't most of that stuff,
like, doesn't it usually come out during discovery
anyway? Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna come out. Exactly.
There's a there's a whole procedure in the
court process where you're exchanging documents, you're exchanging
evidence, you're exchanging videos and text messages, and
everybody gets to see. Before you ever go
to a hearing or before you ever go
to a trial, you already know all the
evidence that's going to be presented at that
hearing or that trial. Isn't that interesting? We
we we shy away from like the community
knowing our business,
but then in the court system in front
of these non Muslims, your entire dirty laundry,
everything is laid out, and you're okay with
that? Yeah. Kind of weird. Right? No. It's
Yeah. That's beautiful. It's beautiful with the sharia
because, you know, as I mentioned earlier, you
know, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala says
if you fear that there's going to be
any dissension between them,
And you read that
So as Bivah, you mentioned that because Islam
does bring the solution in this to where
the man can maintain his masculinity and she
can maintain her femininity and they don't clash
with each other to where they just do
things that they will regret
because the verse is saying if you fear
some dissension between them 2, I. E. The
husband and wife, basically it gets kinda ugly,
search for someone, a hakam, someone that is
ada, someone that is just, someone that is
upright, someone that fears Allah from her family
and someone from his family. But there's a
condition.
If they want Islah Baynahu.
Right?
If they want Islah, then Allah will bring
toafik with them. And that's why this issue
of masculinity is so important with the Muslim
because
their purpose is transcendent. As we always talk
about the purpose of the man, it's not
something of this doing. It's not something of
this world. It's no.
This woman,
Allah provided her for me. It didn't work
out. That's what Allah has predestined.
My responsibility is to go through this process
as a mindful person of Allah, as a
muthaki.
Even if even if
she lied and said I was abusive,
in your office
or in your office? Yeah. You know, we'll
conclude with that. I mean, what would you
tell the man? Because what I tell the
man sometimes they look,
give her the house, man.
Give her the house.
You know?
And you were the provider and you got
that you bought the house,
believe in yourself to get another 1. That's
coming from a, you know, person from the
religious side. You know,
you know. You know, in the same chapter
of of of talaq, Allah mentions taqwa and
said, whoever is mindful of Allah, he'll make
for him an easier way. And then right
after that, he what did he say?
And he provides him from ways that he
would have never, let me call for Hispanic,
he would not have imagined.
I mean, each and every 1 of us
have our story. I mean, I have my
story. I was literally in Riyadh about to
get what my friend of mine was joking
with me. We were sitting
in Riyadh, and I was, you know, trying
to,
you know, teach English and then to get
money from,
and, we're at the stop sign.
And there's guys that sell water, like, at
the at the the the
the street light.
He tapped me. He was like,
he said, you may be you know, you
need to be thinking about going to sell
some water.
In my mind, I was like,
that may not be a bad idea, man.
Just go wholesale and do what needs to
be done. Right? Yeah. Of course. So I,
you know, I told this particular brother, just
just give her the house, man. Don't don't
don't fight. Just give her the house, you
know,
and move on. You know what I'm saying?
Because it's it's it's getting it's getting ugly
now. Yeah. What do y'all say to men
in this regard when it gets ugly?
Or or because, you know, as you mentioned,
you just present the facts. Yeah. Which I
was even gonna ask, like, emotional distress. Is
that considered a fact or not? Or, you
know, she's consistent on that.
When does the man, as we used to
say, just chop it up to the game?
It's like, look.
Alright. You can have that.
You can have that. Yeah. It it's alright,
man. I I I'm gonna be okay
as long as you take care of the
kids. Make sure that I can see them
twice a week, 3 times a week, whatever
the case may be. Okay. You said not
5 times a week. Alright. 4 times a
week. I'm good with that. It it it
it's tough. Right? Because if you're dealing with
somebody who's vengeful and angry, you're not going
to get even nearly as close to what
you were you were hoping to get. Right?
So it's it's it's a tight rope walk
between, like, yes, I want to be a'adil,
and I want to you know, and I
know that Allah will recompensate me
more than I give. Right? Especially if I'm
just keeping taqwa at the forefront. But at
the same time, we also don't wanna encourage
guys to,
just completely cower
and promote their rights. Right? Or say something
like, let her decide
how how often I see the kids or
something like that. You know, maybe you're in
that state where, like, okay, it's okay, Kala.
Let it go. The imam told me, let
it go. The Rebbe's telling me, let it
go. And they forego all of their rights,
and then once it's, you know, in the
final decree, khalas. Right? So it's it's very
difficult. Right? Because, you know, our children and
our wealth are, you know,
Right? Like, that's that's what
is so beautiful about this life and to
to advise somebody, hey, yeah,
give up the money, give up the children.
It's very hard for At least as a
lawyer Mhmm. I mean, obviously, as an imam,
it's gonna be very different. But as a
lawyer, it's very difficult for me to advise
somebody to do that.
On the money side, I'm definitely more flexible.
Mhmm. Right? I'm definitely more flexible when it
comes to the money side to say, yeah.
You have the house. Your children need a
house. Let them live in that house.
You know, they need a car to get
back and forth. Okay. Give them the car.
You know, that type of thing. And I
think the problem is that there's such a
dichotomy between
Islamic law and Western law that it feels
unjust. It feels like somebody's ripping this money
away from you.
So it's a very difficult balance and I
think that that man has to be in
a particular place to even think in that
way that Allah is going to pay me
back, that I'm gonna get this benefit in
the hereafter. It's a very, you know, a
specific
state they have to be in Mhmm. That's
difficult to get into. And then as I
said earlier about the children,
it's not typical
for
it to be 2, 3 times a week.
The average dad's schedule is every other weekend.
What? Yeah. Yeah. Are you kidding me? That's
is that is that is that natural? Because
I think I was actually gonna ask if
we have time to jump into the whole
chat. Were you III think you, were about
to complete this. As you said that, like,
as far as finances, maybe you're a little
bit more lenient, but, like, with seeing the
child because you know the statistics Yes. Of
how important it is for a man to
be in their child's life, you know, boy
or girl. Right? And and and these these
these have been there for, like, a while
as far as, like, you know, the rates
of of children falling into crime, into, like,
lower education, drugs, all of that from single
parent households. Yeah. Right? And our community sometimes
is is is creating this so that for
the next generation,
Allah
protect our kids. Right? So you're you're a
bulldog when it comes to protecting the kids.
Yeah. Because every other weekend and maybe a
weeknight dinner,
maybe, is the average, like, starting point for
a dad. If he wants more, he has
to fight from that point forward. That's that's
what we call standard possession. Correct?
Well,
Texas is different. Illinois has different things, but
Okay. At the very least, most dads are
gonna get every other weekend. Is that enough?
No. No. No way.
But but but okay. Standard position, meaning that
it's an amicable cordial divorce.
If the court decides the wife says, yes,
we're gonna get a divorce, and they enter
into the subject matter of custody,
it'll be a default position that he sees
them every other weekend?
It's not default, but that's usually the minimum.
That that's, like, the starting point.
Well, like,
that's if he's a higher earner, if he's
a less earner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And So
that has nothing to do with man or
woman. That's what what is the court looking
at when it when it defines, like, who
gets because statistically, from what I understand, and
please correct me if I'm wrong, like, the
overall majority of women get I don't wanna
say full custody, but majority custody. Right. Right.
Why is that? Yeah.
So there's different factors that a court's gonna
look at. So in Illinois, for example, 1
of the big factors is who took care
of the primary caretaking functions over the last
24 months.
So if the dad was working and the
mom was staying at home,
she's going to win that left, right and
center, that factor because obviously she was the
1 being the primary caretaker, being there all
the time. And then now you think about
school. Okay. Well,
if they're going to go to school from
mom's house, dad lives 20 miles away, it
doesn't make sense for there to be back
and forth during the weekdays. So,
you know, and then mom needs some downtime
with the kids too, so she's gonna get
a weekend. So then it just boils down
into every other weekend because of those circumstances.
So school's a huge factor. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's so important that you live
close to your kids. That's if you want
to get more time with your kids, live
close.
That's the probably the 1 benefit or the
1 advice I can give when it comes
to custody is try to live as close
as possible. I remember you you you mentioned
this how when they grow up, they realize
I'm not even gonna get to your point,
but
now they grow up, they realize that dad
wasn't such AAAA
creep after all. You know?
I had to advise dad's like, bro, you
you you but my job, she's moving away.
There was 1 individual I met. He was
an older
person,
female,
and she had resentment towards her father because
she found her father was in a a
city that whole time she grew up about
4 hours away.
And the mother was wrong in what she
did,
but she's like,
you should have fought. Yeah.
You didn't even fight.
Like
Even if the outcome's not in your favor,
if the child knows that, look, III tried
my best and I really fought. I mean,
that that makes a difference. And isn't, I
I don't know about the laws in Illinois.
Aren't you confided to, like, a certain radius
anyway after? Once once the divorce is over,
25 miles is usually, like, you're defined to
that radius unless,
you know, they agree or some situation changes
and the court approves it. Right. But, yeah,
there is some limitation there. Oh, that's so
much. There's so much, man. I wish I
wish I wish I could do a completely
different
episode on, like because, you know, we we
haven't even delved into the idea of, okay,
like, what happens now? Now the custody schedule
is set. How do you remain cordial at
that? That's really going to test you because
you're still carrying these emotions. And during exchanges,
you're going to see the other parent.
Like
kids will read your body language, dude. You
know? So, like, are you are you smiling?
Are you, like, frowning and, like, quickly, like,
pulling the kid away? I've seen I've heard
horrible cases
where literally, like, you know, moms will be,
like, clinging on to the kid,
and the father's like, okay, what do I
do? Like, do I pull the kid? And
so now imagine this kid is, like, being
treated like a rag doll. And then in
the child's mind, he's like, okay, I didn't
think dad was dangerous, but if mom is
clinging on to me like this, and mom
might be thinking, no, I just I just
don't want to let him go because I
love him. And he's gonna be freaked out,
or she's gonna be freaked out and thinking,
like, oh, my god, is she trying to
protect me? Is there danger? Is there something
I don't know about? You know, There's so
much to get get into with that and,
like, the psychology of, like, even things like
exchanges, it's it's a lot, bro. Yeah. Yeah.
Suparna. But I I think I think within
the within the course of this, you know,
it's important it's important we use the word
higher road. Right? It's important that the man
leads in taking the higher road. In that
particular situation,
you know, when he sees that
depending on how intense it may be, if
she gets dramatic in front of the masjid,
in front of people, the guy just gotta
just, you know, just
like, how you can have the house or
whatever the case may be. It's like, okay.
We we we need to talk later. Right.
We need to talk later. Oh, we need
to go visit, you know, Usman again, right,
and sit with him. And then what you
what you say to your child after it's
okay. It's not your fault.
You're not responsible
for other people's emotions. You're responsible for their
you know? Because because children carry that too.
Right? Did I make mom upset? Did I
make mom upset? Right? That was a segment
I wanted to touch on. If you have
time, we're gonna touch on on it. Yeah.
Of course. Children. Yeah. That's what you wanna
do. Right. That's that's that's what this is.
No. That's a part of what we you
know? Yeah.
Alright.
Now that first thing is,
how
does dad
tell
the kids
about the divorce?
Like, how does he okay. Let's say
they're at the age of discernment. Let's say
that they're 8, 9, 10.
Dads
moving out of the house.
Yes, SubhanAllah. Okay.
Emphasize
over and over and over again
that it has nothing. 0. Absolutely nothing to
do with them.
You know, your mama loves you, your baba
loves you, we,
you know, sometimes 2 really good people just
you know don't get along in the best
way, but that doesn't mean that we're not
gonna be there for you always.
You know, kids will, you know, especially younger
children, they'll they'll they'll make up these scenarios
in their mind. Oh, yeah. Because I got
an f in in my math class. That's
why mom and Bob are divorcing.
And they carry it with them. You know?
Oh, because, like, you know, that 1 time
I was really loud, and so I caused
it. You know what I'm saying? So emphasize
that over and over and over again. And
what kids look for is stability.
They want normalcy. And it's difficult to achieve
when, you know, now the court is dividing
up this and that. Right? So as much
as you can, normalcy.
Right? And in a good co parenting situation,
right? It's like if he or she has
like a favorite pajama, right? That's being exchanged
back and forth. If they have a certain
routine at night, that's being maintained. Whatever of
their normal routine can be maintained,
maintain that. Right? And then again, like, you
know, you know, in a situation and, you
know, I'll be real, like it's where, you
know, let's suppose the mom is, like, holding
on to the child and, like, the the
dad's already, like, okay, she already took all
my money, this, that, and now she's trying
to give away my child. Right? Afterwards, what
do you tell the child? What What do
you do with your own emotions at that
point? Now you now you have your child,
and you're driving back. Right? Do you say,
oh, my god. I can't believe she did
that? Mhmm. Or do you,
you know, step up and think about, okay,
forget about my emotions right now just for
a second. What are the psychological implications
on my that's gonna happen to my child
when I start badmouthing his mom or showing
that frustration instead of, you know, it's okay
again, priority. It's not your fault, number 1.
And number number 2, it's okay. You know,
she really loves you a lot. We both
really love you a lot. And I know
these transitions can be difficult. Mhmm. And that's
it. Khalas, make it about him. Make it
about him. Not about not about you. It's
not about you. Right. Right. If she if
she if she,
if if the if the man finds out
that there's false
the father finds out
that there's false accusations about him from mom,
from the child. Yeah. That happens a lot.
That happens so much. Right? What does he
do? I mean, I have I have so
many cases where mom has said that dad
has sexually abused the kids, that dad has
hit the kids, that dad has done XYZ
to the kids,
and staging videos
of the children saying things. I had a
case where
mom put cocaine
in the kid's shoe
because the dad was gonna fly with the
kid. They live in different countries to fly
the kid so that he would get caught
and get arrested,
for having, you know, cocaine with him. So
I mean, you see crazy, crazy setups.
I mean, you have, you know, parents who
are like
training their kids to respond in a certain
way to say that, oh, dad touched you
here, right, or mom touched you here, right,
and like basically feeding that into them before
they go into the interview with the the
court, appointed GAL or something like that. So
I've had cases where dad wasn't able to
see the case for years, 2 years, we
had to get psychological reports, get all these
things, So finally, dad can get some time
and get some custody.
I mean, from a legal perspective, again, that's
why you need If you have, you know,
the money, the patience,
fight for your kids to show that you
did not do these things, that this is
not you because this is going to have
such a big impact on the kids. I
mean, there's no other way except for get
a good lawyer and
make sure that your lawyer is at least
on par or
better than her lawyer. Like, don't go the
cheaper route when it comes to this. I
know I know. I'm not trying to give,
like, an advertisement. I'm just being really honest.
No. No. I'm just being really honest. No.
I'm just being really honest. No. I'm just
being really honest. No. I'm just being really
honest. No. I'm just being really honest. No.
I'm just being really honest. No. That's no.
That's and I was actually just telling you
before. Yeah. I mean,
what if what if you don't have the
money? And this this happens a lot too.
Right? Is is there such a thing as
like like a public defender type thing for
there's in family court, they can only Here's
the thing. The only
there's legal aid
for abuse only. Abuse only. So if there's
domestic violence involved,
then legal aid will step in to defend,
you know, usually typically,
moms are the ones who will get legal
aid because they're they will be the ones
either being abused
or accuse the husband of being an abuser.
Right. So typically, the wife will end up
with legal aid. I don't think I've ever
in my 10, 15 years have seen a
guy get legal aid. So so so, I
mean, with this, now we talked about, okay,
you know, addressing to the children, you know,
make sure when you speak to your children,
you you you assure that it's not their
fault and that it's something that but it's
it's a it's a disagreement between mom and
dad. Right. Right. And and and, you know,
again, it's it's because,
you know, if you are better as a
parent
separate,
your job is to be the best possible
parent to that child. And so that's kind
of what you're showing that, like, you know,
like,
you don't you don't have to go thoroughly
in text. But in fact, we overshare sometimes
with our kids about, like, oh, you know,
she does. They don't need to know all
that. Right? So
do we think that or we think that
we're being transparent, and that's a good thing.
No. They don't need to hear that at
all. Yeah. Because, you know, at the end
of the day, that's their mother. Right. That's
their father. That's that's that's all that matters.
That's the last be destined to do. You
you want somebody saying that about your mom
or your dad? A lot. You know what
I'm saying? Like, so, yeah.
It's it's it's again, make make more the
focus on them, their stability, their ability to
express their emotions. I strongly, strongly recommend,
that the child,
you know, goes to therapy.
Shout out to Brother Fozan who was your
last episode. Mhmm. That's his thing, Insha'Allah.
So,
you know, even if things seem okay, there's
a lot that they keep in. You know,
they might be because because you're so consumed,
like, talking to lawyers, figuring stuff out and
so on, like, you may not even pay
attention to what the child's going through. So,
you know, have have that set up as
well,
where where where they have someone to talk
to. So what are some things that they
should consider? Like, you know,
he he comes to you and he says,
man, I'm just
I'm being eaten for the child support
and alimony,
and it's taking 80% of my paycheck. Yeah.
And there's a stigma in the community. I
can't even go back to the community. Communities
don't really cater to a 35 year old
single man.
You know, and the other I think
as guys we need to ask the follow-up
question.
I think a lot of times what happens
is that a guy will say something, they'll
give you a little cue, Right? That something's
going amiss, something's wrong. Which is a
And the guy just
says, oh, man, you know, I'm sorry. Or,
like, they'll say something, but they don't ask
the follow-up question. A lot of times, even
myself, I feel like I'm burdening my spouse.
I'm burdening somebody
with my problems unless
they take interest in that problem and ask
the follow-up questions. So that's what I try
to do for others is just ask that
1 follow-up question and you'll see the gates
open. You know, so I I that's, I
think, number 1. Number 2 is, you know,
as Sheikh, as you always mentioned, you know,
going and playing basketball, going and working out
together. Do that physical activity, and then maybe
when you're going, you know, to 7:11 after
to grab a drink or you're going to
sit some coffee, Then that comes out after
that, you know, activity that you had together.
So taking time out, asking the follow-up question,
and just taking interest in your brother. Right.
Right. Are you good? And then it's like,
oh, are you actually not really are you
really good? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And then
and then for the guy going through it.
Right? Like, don't deprive your brother of the
of being able to help him.
Yeah. The guy exactly. Exactly. Don't deprive him.
And that, you know, just to be you
know, it takes a level of humility and
digging deep, you know, to be vulnerable like
that. Because guys being vulnerable is is is
a challenge. Yeah. It's an art fit too,
you know, but it's it's a it's a
beautiful you had enough you had enough stuff
fighting. So
child support. I'll
say versus or along with
alimony. Yeah.
I mean Those are 2 separate. They're 2
separate. Yeah. Yeah. 2 separate.
He gets a divorce.
You know, he's making 200, 000. She's making
100, 000. 100 1, 000 has always been
hers. Mhmm. And then now the 200, 000.
I think you mentioned the equation equation on
1 of your videos with the alimony. Yeah.
Right? How
should a man,
you know,
appropriately
journey, you know, through that a child support
if it's 2 or 3 children?
And, you know, you find a lot of
guys within this Red Pill movement and a
lot of brothers even that are non Red
Pill as well. Let's say, look. They don't
need that much
to go through. Is that really the case
that and I know it could be state
by state Yeah. If that's you know, how
to journey through that? I mean, how to
because, you know, you you'll find someone that
will say, look. I'm not getting married in
California.
Okay? That's not happening.
You know? But the president could change. So,
I mean, you know, it's like Yeah. So
what are some considerations that he should take
in regards to child support? When it comes
to child support, there's different, you know, mudhubs
of child support. Right? You'll have
1 madhhab talk about taking into consideration both
parties' income. Mhmm. Okay? And they'll
basically add up both parties' income,
put it onto a graph, and then that
graph is gonna tell you how much the
guy needs to pay the girl, for example.
Or you might just have a state where
they only look at the payer's
income, and it's like 22%
for 1 kid, 24% for 2 kids, 28%
for 3 kids, for example. So it depends
where you at in terms of what the
child support actually pays for. Me personally,
I always tell my clients pay the child
support. You as a man, it's your job
to pay for the expenses of the child
100%.
So much so that I argue in in
Illinois, for example,
that taking into consideration the wife's income is
actually
try to stay away from that. And I
try to negotiate, hey, we'll pay a higher
child support,
get rid of the alimony. Mhmm. So I
don't think that child support is really what's
killing guys. I think really what's killing is
the alimony piece of it more so than
child support.
To your point, the the theory behind child
support is to pay for their
housing,
food and clothing.
And sometimes
on top of child support, you have to
split child expenses.
So uncovered healthcare,
extra curricular activities,
educational expenses, you know, these expenses are on
top
of child support many of many times. Meaning
on top on top, meaning that the state
will legislate that as will mandate that as
well On top of the child support. Because
the child support is only covering these 3
areas, so you still gotta contribute 50%, let's
say, on top of that for the expenses
of the child. Those other expenses are typically
split? Or Those are typically split. Oh, yeah.
Those are gonna typically split. But child support,
you know, might be, let's say, a grand,
2 grand,
for child support. And there's no way for
you to monitor how that money's being used.
Right? So it's very difficult to see, is
this really being used for the kids or
not? Is it too much or too less?
But I think the real problem is alimony.
So you're able to negotiate that. So the
man upon divorce, he has the liberty to
negotiate,
allocating more funds for child support versus alimony.
If the other side's open to it. Yes.
If the other side's open to it. If
they're gonna leave it up to the judge,
the judge wouldn't do that. He would not
do that? No. The he's just gonna apply
the formula.
This is alimony. This is child support. Everything's
divided 5050 or what. In Illinois, actually, it's
equitable. So it could be more than 5050.
The the 1 party can get 70% of
the estate or 80% of the state. Texas
is community, so it's usually always 5050.
But in equitable states, it could be more
than 5050. And you're you're not gonna know
how that money is being spent, but like,
you know, just have the intention, you know,
love, this is for my child. Yeah. Or
just let it be. Yeah. You know? Just
let it be. Just let it be. Alimony,
I can I can I would feel the
pinch of that?
Is there any way they could go, I
mean, you know, online to see, you know,
like these formulas you're mentioning, which states have
which equation of alimony to where a guy
could just kind of become astute to this,
even the sister as well? Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, so each state is gonna have like,
child support calculators.
And many law firms have like a child
support calculator on their website.
That might be something to,
you can put in your incomes and see
what that spits out. And the other thing
too is that if there's alimony awarded, typically,
alimony will be taken into consideration
to calculate the child support.
So for example Uh-huh. If I have to
pay
somebody $3, 000 for alimony,
then
that income is going to be considered her
income and then deducted from my income and
then we're going to calculate
child support. So child support, in many cases
when there's alimony,
child support is actually much less
than what the alimony payment is.
Alimony payment usually will be much more than
what child support amount is. Yeah. Because alimony
is going to take care of the children
as well. Well, it's not It's supposed to.
It's not No. It's not supposed to be
That's that's spousal support. That's spousal support. It's
just for the wife. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just for the spouse.
Why would it be more? Why why?
Because let's say, for example,
in Illinois, for example,
33% of your income
could go for alimony.
Okay? Okay. And then on top of that
child support, so bringing you close to that
50% of your paycheck
going going to your ex.
So the percentage of alimony is 33%,
but let's say the child support for 1
is 21%.
Oh, wow.
Yeah. Yeah. In Illinois. Yeah.
That's just 1 child. It could be 1
child. Yeah. Well, if it's 2. Oh, yeah.
24%
or whatever. Wow. I mean, the the formula
is a little different now, but that they
are buying. Yeah. It's it's probably easier pill
to swallow when you're paying more child support.
Right? Yes. Exactly.
Yeah. Exactly. Because it's like
that's my child. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The
psychological aspect of just having that negotiation is
usually a win for my client. Yeah. Well,
May Allah bless both of you. I think
it was heavily informative.
I think all of you should take notes
on this. And,
as we do, we try to, you know,
look at the comments and respond to the
comments in an adequate fashion.
Please leave the comments. As I mentioned before,
brothers, particularly brothers,
we are not able to cover all of
the aspects that deal with the legal ramifications
or the legal legalities of divorce as long
as the psychological as as well as the
psychological effects and ramifications,
of divorce.
But we just wanted to touch on some
milestones to kind of give you a mub
debt, to kind of give you a seed,
to spark conversation.
Hopefully some of you that are looking to
get married, you know, you current MSA guys
or or or girls, you know, invite these
brothers.
You you go to you know, you you
you you look up,
brother Naveed online,
brother Usman online.
You look at these resources that are there
because they're do they're doing this
to worship Allah by helping you in the
different realms due to society what is happening
now. Getting a lawyer is very, very important.
Having a therapist is very, very important. Having
premarital counseling is very, very important. So,
I think this is a huge, huge, huge
aspect in regards to a man that is
currently going through a divorce and he's alone.
Reach out, man. Reach out to some of
your brothers there.
1 may not respond. Reach out to another
1. It's easy for me to say,
but that struggle that you're doing,
Allah is not unaware not unaware of it,
and he knows that you're doing it to
be the best version of yourself, which is
embodying male excellence for his sake. So may
Allah bless you all,
Naveed Hussain with Nikah Masterclass. Right? Nikah Masterclass.
You can go up online.
Brother Mahad here with Suhba. You can look
them up, premarital counseling.
We have brother Faizan in the studio as
well with Salam
Salam with Simply Sukhun. Simply Sukhun.
And, we have brother Usman Moogne with peacefulyou.com.org.org.
Dotorg.
.Org.
Bless you all and make you of those
that embody masculine excellence in this life to
be protected by him, Inshallah, and loved by
him in the next life.
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