Mohammed Hijab – Syria HTS Al-Jolani MMA American-UK Dawah- MH Podcast – w
AI: Summary ©
The speakers emphasize the importance of protecting oneself and their families, protecting their property, lineage, wealth, and life, and working in a car insurance business. They stress the need for men to learn martial arts and combat sports, and for individuals to defend themselves and not give up on others' opinions. The speakers also emphasize the importance of practicing boxing and staying true to one's views, and emphasize the need for journalists to help people achieve their goals. They acknowledge the challenges of traveling and require engagement from individuals, and mention upcoming events and assignments.
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The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ told us that whoever
builds a mosque for Allah, Allah will build
for him a similar house in Jannah and
we know the great reward that will not
only be gained but rather will fill your
grave after your death.
Whenever someone prays there, whenever someone gives shahada
in the masjid, whenever someone learns something in
the masjid, yes that will be something that
you will have on your scale.
Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, how are you guys
doing and welcome to another episode of the
MH podcast, the most inconsistent podcast in the
Dawa space and probably on the internet.
But who we're with today is a man
responsible for a podcast, the Blood Brothers podcast,
I usually come on to his podcast which
is actually a very consistent and fantastic podcast.
So Mashallah you do a very good job
and also one of the chief editors in
5 Pillars, somebody who's well qualified.
People don't know your actual academic background, you've
done an international relations degree haven't you?
BA in politics and an MA in print
journalism.
That's fantastic and he's also Mashallah been a
journalist for how many years has it been?
13 now.
13 years.
And actually to be honest in terms of
people that are representing the conservative Islamic position,
the normative position, the traditional position, I don't
really know many other people that are doing
it like 5 Pillars, I have to say
that.
Even recently when you went to, and we'll
talk about this I guess, Syria, I mean
I was quite worried on your behalf, I'm
thinking he's going to a place like this,
isn't this a war zone or?
You did.
But this is the kind of thing that
separates you I think from the crowd.
Tell me of your experience generally speaking when
you went to Syria.
Subhanallah, Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim, Alhamdulillah wa
salatu wa salamu ala Rasulullah.
Syria is mad bro, Alhamdulillah, I mean I
remember before I set off you said to
me, is it safe?
You know, speak to your lawyers and all
that, which I did of course, I exhausted
all due diligence before I flew out because
even though on paper I might be the
same as Jeremy Bowen or a journalist from
the Guardian, the application of the law is
very different when you're a Muslim journalist, especially
when you're interpreting current affairs from the standpoint
of faith and that is one of the
most challenging things to do bro, is when
you look at current affairs and trying to
cover it from a moral compass of your
faith.
Secular newspapers will do it from their secular
moral compass and one of the biggest challenges
is covering news from a Muslim and Islamic
perspective because you know we're not one monolith
either and Syria happens to be one of
those conflicts which polarises views, it polarises allies
but the trip itself, subhanallah, it was eye
-opening.
What was the vibe like, was it vibrant,
were people happy, how did you feel?
Jubilant.
Really?
Wallahi jubilant.
I cannot represent anything else except that people
were over the moon, ecstatic, excited, happy.
Yes, there is worries and concerns, as in,
is this really happening?
Fifty-four years we lived under Bassads, I've
never seen foreign fighters loved, respected so much,
they were being given roses, they were given
baklava.
The foreign fighters, what kind of countries were
they from?
So they were European fighters, I met a
few Germans, Dutch, I met a few Brits
out there.
Really?
Yeah, but the vast majority of the Muhajireen,
they come from like the Maghreb, from Libya,
from Tunisia, in Egypt and other parts but
it's a mix but the biggest group of
non-Syrian fighters are the Uyghurs.
Wallah.
And how did you feel with them?
These brothers, they are a jama'a upon
themselves and the positive thing which I, and
the consistent thing which I got from the
leadership and my engagements with them, often on
camera, is that these non-Syrian fighters who
sacrificed, gave their blood, life, made hijrah, they
will be given citizenship and they'll probably be
incorporated into the new Syrian National Army.
Now hijab, clock this, people are going to
be waking up in Damascus and they're going
to be finding Turks walking around in Damascus,
it's like they've gone back a thousand years
I think.
There's a lot of Turks as well.
Turkic.
Yeah, Turkic and Turkmen.
So in terms of optics, that's a strong
ummatic optics, a thousand years ago there were
Turks and Mamluks flying about in the city
of Damascus guarding it and a thousand years
later.
But also now with all the immigration, the
Syrian immigration to Turkey, now it's kind of
like, not Turkey, but you know, you've got
Turkic people of some sort.
Absolutely, 100%.
People are jubilant bro, the very fact that
we've got tens of thousands of Syrians trying
to cross over the border to return to
their rubbled homes, shows the European right wingers
actually that when a country is stable and
secure and it's not destabilised through sanctions and
wars, there's no reason for people to come
here.
I remember one time you told, what's that
famous American female content creator, what was she
called?
Michaela Peterson.
Michaela Peterson.
The other one.
You shared a panel with her.
She has quite a sizeable following, volleyball player.
Oh, Pearl.
Pearl.
I remember you said to Pearl that, listen,
don't think these people are coming for European
freedoms.
Yeah, yeah.
It's nearly entirely economics.
They're coming here for financial stability.
They're coming here because lives back home are
not so great.
So Syrians were jubilant, they're excited, they're celebrating,
they're happy and...
Are these groups that you mentioned, like the
Uyghurs and the, you know, the foreign fighters,
are they all part of HTS or are
they part of other militias or what are
they?
They are generally part of Hayat al-Tahrir
al-Sham, which is a prescribed terrorist group
as we speak under UK law and the
UN and the US.
But they're also...
Well, they're looking into that.
They want to...
Yes, yes.
That's been considerably reviewed and I believe the
de-prescription is only a matter of weeks
let alone months.
I mean, the $10 million bounty on top
of al-Julani's head, that's been removed.
So a lot is happening.
We'll get to that.
But generally, Hijab, Syrians are happy, they're over
the moon, they're celebrating.
And was it just Damascus you went or
did you go to other places?
I went to Damascus, I went to Hama,
I went to Homs, I went to Aleppo,
I went to Azez.
And was there any similarities and differences between
different cities?
So Homs, obviously the burial place and the
resting place of Khalid bin Waleed r.a,
Homs was very unique in the sense that
it was the only city that was entirely
liberated by the rebel factions, but then subsequently
it was the only city in the whole
of Syria that was entirely besieged and decimated.
So you'll see that in a video that
I'm going to release in the coming days,
that I'm on top of the Khalid bin
Waleed Masjid, which has been renovated after it
was attacked by regime forces, but the entirety
of Homs decimated by, you know, the scenery
that we're seeing in Gaza, you know, rubble
destruction, 60, 70% of Syria is already
like that.
We forget that for 13 years, the regime
forces as well as Russia has been pounding,
pounding, So yeah, Homs, obviously the burial place,
the heartbeat, the nucleus of the Syrian revolution.
Were you in a hotel there?
No, no, I stayed in local places, but
in Damascus, I stayed in a hotel, I
stayed in Sheraton because there was a certain
buzz in the air with so many international
journalists, AP, Reuters, BBC, CNN, everyone's floating about.
You've got undercover security services from different countries
and diplomats.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's a completely different vibe in Damascus.
So many people queuing up to meet the
new transitional head of government, Al-Julali.
It's mad that I sometimes find it quite
surprising that he's just walking around sometimes without
any like protection or seemingly without any protection.
Yes, no, he is.
Someone can just snipe him, no?
Yeah, absolutely.
Just the other day, he jumped into a
car and he drove Haqqan Fidan, the foreign
minister of Turkey, in a car to Basra
al-Amawi and just like that, just like
that, having a coffee.
So what's the reasoning behind that?
I think obviously there is a veneer of
legitimacy in the sense that, well, I am
the man who has led Operation Deterring Aggression.
I am the man that you now have
to deal with in Syria.
Now critics and sceptics will say, oh, this
is the guy that America and Israel have
placed and planted there.
I'm yet to see it.
What do you think?
I mean, let's get to that now then.
Let's do it.
You met with HTS or the members of
HTS.
Did you meet with Al-Julali as well?
Yes, I met with him.
I spent an hour with him.
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
So let me ask you this.
I mean, you're quite good at reading people.
Sure.
You've been a journalist for a long time.
If there's anyone that's going to be able
to read somebody, lawyers and journalists and interrogate
police officers.
I'll try my best.
Yeah.
What do you think?
What is he?
There's two kind of, let's say, extreme interpretations.
One of them is that he's like some
kind of a saviour, like Salah ad-Din
al-Ayubi.
And the other one is that he's an
agent actually put in place by the Americans
and Israel itself.
Do you subscribe to any of that?
Or do you think that the truth is
somewhere in the middle of what's your impression?
Because of the extremities of both positions, that
he's either the next liberator of Al-Aqsa
al-Malakud or that he's an American student
and an agent, they're so extreme that there's
barely evidence to substantiate those claims.
The truth is this.
When I met him and the aura and
the vibe that I got from him is
that he's someone who at the time, when
I met him, looked very tired and exhausted.
He's definitely a statesman and a leader of
the state in the making, if not already
made.
And I'll tell you how.
The answers to the questions were diplomatic.
They were succinct, but not direct.
And that's the hallmark of a politician in
the making.
Now, whether that's a good thing or a
bad thing, it's a completely different conversation.
The fact that people thought that this would
be someone who'd either remain in military garb,
in the Harki garb or in a thawb
or some religious attire, but now he's wearing
three-piece suits and a tie.
So there's all these kind of optics.
He didn't give me the initial feeling that
this is the next liberator of Al-Quds,
but then what does that feeling ever mean,
right?
And nor did he give me the vibe
that this was a Western stooge.
I think those are very extreme positions, but
what I felt was that he has clearly
been preparing himself to lead this country, because
there is no way that overnight he's able
to engage with and host at such high
level foreign dignitaries and diplomats.
If this was just a jungle jihadi that's
been hiding in the enclaves of Idlib, do
you understand?
So he's been preparing.
So how do you think that process took
place?
Did you think he knew that this, because
there are some videos of him before this
event took place saying that we're going to
be liberated in this time.
So did you think that he, how did
he know that?
So between 2019 and 2024, they've all said
that we've been preparing.
Because lest we forget that within a year
of the Syrian revolution, the rebels had taken
60%.
It's not as if they are new to
the position of gaining a lot of territory,
but the infighting, the introduction or the emergence
of ISIS, the US led coalition bombing, Russia
getting involved in 2016, all of that were
major setbacks.
They've learnt from the lessons of infighting.
They've learnt from the lessons of guerrilla warfare
and urban warfare with Hezbollah and Iranian militias.
So they said that between 2019 to 2024,
there's been immense preparation, learning from mistakes, unifying
the ranks, producing domestically manufactured weaponry like UAV
and Shaheen drones and AI-based...
Do they have power?
Do they have aircraft?
Do they have aircraft and do they have
to use them?
Well, the majority of it has been now
bombed by Israel.
Yeah.
Majority?
80% of Syria's kind of heavy strategic
military armament has been destroyed.
Quite similar to what they did in the
Six Day War.
Yes.
But the rebel factions, the rebel fighters and
the HHS leadership basis that these are weaponry
that we've never had experience of and we
managed to topple Assad without this.
And they seem very confident that countries like
Turkey and maybe Qatar even will help the
rearmament process.
And the future of modern warfare, hijab, is
that we're moving away from...
There's even like American critics of the F
-16 and the F-35 saying it's way
too costly.
It's way too resource heavy.
It's way too heavy on oil and all
this kind of stuff.
Now it's what?
Drone warfare?
Now it's drone warfare.
UAV, artificial intelligence.
That is the future of warfare.
And we've seen that play out in Ukraine.
We've seen this play out in Syria.
When they took Halab and they took Homs,
they managed to retrieve some of the key
telecom locations of the regime.
And they saw that they had dated Soviet
equipment where they were dialing like this and
it was like from a Rambo movie.
So they said, look, we've been preparing militarily.
We've been preparing morally, spiritually, and understanding that
these were the mistakes that we made against
the Iranians and the Hezbollah.
This is how they fight in this terrain
and so forth.
But the initial plan was just to take
Aleppo.
But when Aleppo fell within 24 hours with
little fight, then they marched to Homs.
And when they marched to Homs, it's that
if Homs fell, Damascus would only fall in
a matter of days.
Because once Homs falls, if you look at
it in a map, it strangles Damascus from
the only land route that Iran has through
the area of Quntera, which is like, so
Iran up until now had a land route
where it could basically send reinforcements and weapons
through Syria into Lebanon via Quntera.
I think I pronounced it properly if I
haven't, do correct me.
So all of that's now gone for Iran.
And when they took Homs, taking Damascus was
only a matter of days.
12 days, they took 80% of Syria.
So there are different kind of interpretations of
this.
I've heard some people say, well, actually, it
was all Putin's doing in the sense that
he decided that he doesn't want to back
Bashar anymore.
And it's not the rebels that were to
be given credit here.
If you want to give any credit to
anybody, you can give it to Putin himself.
It's almost like, you know, Bashar al-Assad
was some kind of an employee who got
fired by Putin and the Iranians.
That's one interpretation that I've heard.
What do you make of that?
I mean, the Russians can flex that for
damage limitation, but the reality is this.
The Syrian Arab army was nearly entirely propped
up and maintained and preserved by foreign reinforcements,
whether that be Iranian militias, whether that be
Hezbollah fighters or Russian airpower.
And the strategic timing of Operation Determining Aggression,
they made no secret about it.
They launched it a day after Hezbollah agreed
the ceasefire with Israel.
They did it knowing full well that Russia
is stretched out in Ukraine.
They did it knowing full well that Iran
had experienced multiple * noses from Israel.
So they chose the timing of the weakness
of the perceived axis of resistance to launch
this attack.
What Russia and Iran did when they realized
that the Syrian Arab army was not even
fighting for themselves, that we are not going
to sacrifice manpower if you're not going to
fight for this very country.
There were few airstrikes in Homs and in
Hama by the Russians from their base in
Tartus.
But it was nothing significant.
And of course.
So why is that then?
So why do you think that the Syrian
army decided we don't want to do this
anymore?
Because the operation itself was so overwhelming in
that they simply were not prepared for the
multitude of attacks that were happening, including sleeper
cells in these said cities.
So even that took preparation to prepare sleeper
cells that were literally immersed within regime held
cities and that there would come a time
where they would have to be activated and
fight from within.
Sleeper cells are basically resistance groups of those
who are fighting the regime from within but
pretending to be on the other side.
It's something which is used in, it's classically
been used throughout the decades and centuries.
Sleeper cells is nothing new.
So they had people who were already aligned
to the rebel groups in these cities going
about their daily lives as if they're part
of the regime or posing no threat.
And when that time came, they were activated
and they attacked from within.
The regime forces were attacked straight on.
They were pincered.
They were attacked from the back.
They were surrounded.
But also the rebel factions consistently announced that
there'd be a general amnesty that's look, defect.
You don't want to lose.
That helped.
Yeah, because it helped the Taliban.
It helped the Taliban in 2021, but they
did the same thing when they took the
most of Afghanistan in August 2021.
One of the things that helped them was
that they declared from the very onset that
there's a general amnesty.
Put your guns down.
We will not kill you.
And that also assisted in taking large swathes
of the country.
Do you think HCS looked to the Taliban
sometimes for military kind of like strategy?
There are lots of comparisons have been made
between Afghanistan and Syria.
I mean, look, just here, there was a
FaceTime call between Abdul Qahar Balkhi, who's that?
The spokesperson.
Spokesperson for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs giving
salams and congratulations to Obeid Arnaut.
Oh, OK.
So there's a line of comms open, but
they also realize that they're dealing with two
very different realities.
Even in a recent BBC interview, Mr. Al
-Julani, he said when he was asked about
girls' education, he goes, look, we're not Afghanistan,
we're not a tribal society.
And that wasn't even like a swipe at
the Taliban.
It was just that we're different.
We're different.
That's it.
And the Taliban have always maintained...
No, but that's totally true, because I think
in the whole of the Arab world, that
whole thing has never really been an issue
anywhere.
Yeah.
And maybe with this exception of a few
Gulf states back in the day, but like
in the whole Arab world, this education thing
has never been a thing.
And the Levant, especially, it's always been like
a melting pot for all of them.
Exactly that.
Right.
So, yeah.
But I mean, just to conclude, look, I
don't want to take away any agency from
the efforts of the Syrian rebel factions.
Obviously, you've got Hayat al-Tahrir al-Sham
and the various groups that fall under its
umbrella.
Then you've got the Syrian National Army, who
are backed, armed and funded by the Turks.
Then you've got the southern rebels that came
from there.
These guys are essentially funded and trained by
the UAE in Jordan and very pro-American.
You've got different factions who are part of
this operation, but ultimately it was HTS that
were the most formidable and successful in gaining
territory.
What do you think of al-Jolani himself,
or do you think he's a sincere actor,
a bad faith actor?
What vibe did you get from him as
a person?
That's a hard one, that hijab.
Is it a difficult one?
It is a difficult one.
Well, you're quite good at reading people.
You can see.
My feelings was that he's got a huge
task at hand and only time will tell.
No, but as a person, do you think
this man is sincere?
Do you see what I'm asking here?
I mean, you can tell, you've interviewed so
many people before, do you think this man
is sincere or do you think he's actually
fundamentally about it?
Is it hard to answer?
It's hard to answer.
I'll tell you why it's hard to answer.
Because even though I spent around an hour
with him, which is based around a question
and answer.
It's not enough time.
There wasn't enough personal interaction.
But I just think it's too early to
tell.
Also, if I turn around and say that
he does give me Salahuddin vibes, you'll have
a S.O. 15 booting my door down
saying you're inviting support for the leader of
a prescribed group.
But if I was to turn around and
say that he's a US agent, what evidence
do I have that he gives me the
feeling of a stooge?
He doesn't.
Does he give you a feeling that he's
been paid by the US?
He didn't.
No, he didn't give me that vibe.
He didn't give you that vibe.
Do you know what vibe he gave me?
And the guys around him, the other brother,
what's his name?
The guy that's part of the government?
Obeid Arnaut.
Yeah.
The head of the political bureau and the
official spokesman and all the other guys that
I met, they didn't give me that vibe.
Shall I tell you what vibe they gave
me?
They gave me the vibe that this is
a very sensitive nature, situation, and we've got
so many different parties to keep happy.
Because if we upset one party over the
other, what we've just achieved can come crumbling
down within days.
A lot of political analysts are saying that
they're very shrewd, actually.
I've seen a lot of high praise, in
a way, from Western academics and journalists saying
that Joe Lani is acting in a very
clever manner.
He's really assessing the situation in a very
clever manner.
Did you get that?
Yes.
He was a very high IQ individual.
He was being very shrewd.
Yeah, and that's why I said to you
that the vibe that he gave me was
that this is a leader of a state
either in the making or already made.
And there's no way that he'd have learned
this overnight or in a short space of
time.
So clearly there's been training and preparation for
this time now.
And every answer that he gave was clinical,
succinct, but not answering directly.
And that is the hallmark of a competent
politician.
But yeah, he didn't give me the vibe
that this guy is an American stooge and
he's a Zionist stooge.
Only time will tell from policies and positions.
That's the only time you can judge a
politician.
What do you think they're going to do
with Israel?
So I asked him that.
I said, look, Israel...
Did you?
Yeah.
I said, look, Israel is attacking.
Are you going to release this?
Yeah.
It's already out.
The Jolani one?
Yeah.
The thing is, the interaction itself wasn't recorded,
but the contents of the conversation has been
released.
So you're not going to put the one
out of the Jolani?
No.
When I met Jolani and we were in
that closed meeting, that meeting was not allowed
to be filmed.
Oh, okay.
Fine.
But the Q&A and the contents of
the conversations have been reported and I've released
it.
Okay.
Tell me now.
So when you did ask him about Israel
in Jolani, when you asked him about Israel,
what was what did he say?
Going to war with Israel is not a
priority right now.
What is a priority is unifying Syria, national
unity, consolidating power in the land that we've
already controlled and have gained, re-establishing and,
you know, re-strengthening state institutions and ministries
as a result of the abrupt departure of
the Assad regime.
You know, the state functioning has to continue
and that's a priority right now.
Did you get the feeling that this, he
was saying it maybe as a stratagem of
war, like Al-Harb Kheda, war is deception?
Possibly, because another thing that, he didn't say
this, but some of his close guys said
this to me.
They said, look, I don't understand that after
13 years of a * war, 600,000
people have been killed.
That's a conservative estimate.
12 million displaced.
Why are people expecting from us in 11
days what the Arab regimes have not done
in 50 years?
And I think that's a fair comment.
Who said that?
Obeid Arnaut said that off camera.
He said, you know, a lot of people
said that this is the official spokesman.
He said, I don't understand, like the expectations
from us in 11 days, we've only gained
Damascus in 11, 12 days.
Why are people expecting us to do this?
I think the reason why is because they're
an Islamist government and these ones were nationalist
governments, secular.
So I think that because they think the
ideological positioning is similar.
Black flag, army marching.
Yeah, that's it.
And I think that, you know, especially if
you consult a lot of the classical Islamic
fiqh books that say like, you know, the
jihad, you go to the borders.
So the ones who are closest to foreign
countries, they're the ones who should do it.
So I mean, that might be a thing.
The reason why the expectation is there.
I would even say that one of my
a tad frustration of mine was that, OK,
fine, you're not going to wage war with
Israel or respond in any kind, but perhaps
some more assertive words of solidarity with Palestinians
and being a bit more scathing in your
criticisms of Israel would be better.
It would be received better.
I think some most Muslims will understand the
difficulties of going to war with Israel, especially
after we've seen 14 months of genocide in
Gaza.
So I think people can be forgiven for
that.
What they can't be so forgiving about is
either ignoring the issue, which they did.
You know, it took the transitional government nearly
a week to address it publicly.
Think about that.
Israel is making land incursions, has taken Mount
Hermon, is 22 kilometres south of Damascus, is
shooting protesters in Daraa and a week later
you've addressed the issue.
And when you've addressed it, you've addressed it
in a way, in a bit of an
airy, fairy way.
Of course, they've appealed to the international community
and the UN to intervene and to ensure
that Israel abides by international law.
But bro, come on, we've seen 14 months
of what the farce of international law means,
especially in terms of application and Israel's adherence
to it.
It's a joke.
It doesn't exist.
But yeah, I would have hoped to have
seen more fiery words against Israel, but I
didn't get that.
So I felt that this pragmatic approach in
dealing with so many different constituencies who would
shape and influence the future of Syria is
the quagmire that they're actually dealing with.
Because, I mean, they could make an international
relations argument for the Golan Heights.
I mean, obviously it's occupied territory and the
fact that the buffer zone above it has
been also overtaken now and they push forward
and all the attacks now that they've done.
So there's...
Syria has a right to defend itself.
Syria has a right to defend itself under
Islamic law and international law.
Now, as to why they're not doing it,
it just came across from the words of
Mr. al-Sharaa and Mr. Arnaut, both of
them, is that this is not a priority
right now.
The priority is national unity to strengthen the
ministries and the state functions and consolidating a
law and order and the land that we've
gained after 13 years of bloodshed, death and
destruction.
So we have to give things time.
Absolutely.
I think criticise them in six months, in
a year, in two years, but it's not
even been two weeks, Hijab.
I mean, do you think it's fair to
expect so much in two weeks?
No, I can see the argument.
I can see the argument.
I can see the argument on both sides
because the thing is, one could argue, I
don't know about what you would say about
that, the issue is the biggest fear, I
think, for Syrian society now for the different
groups is that they would differ and fight
in fight because you've got so many different
groups that are kind of dissimilar in terms
of ideology and dissimilar sometimes in terms of
sect and so on.
So sometimes it can be a thing to
focus on an external enemy so that you
can placate the internal strife and the internal
fighting that can happen between groups.
You know when people say, oh, we don't
want Syria to be another Iraq or Libya.
We've heard that quite often, right, since us
have been toppled.
Well, OK, for them to prevent it from
being another Libya or Iraq, they need that
time to consolidate and unify their ranks.
Because remember, these rebel factions now who are
armed, they need to now basically be integrated
to form the new national army.
That is a huge process and task at
hand.
So when they're saying that, look, we need
to prioritise these things, it makes absolute sense
because if you don't prioritise those things and
start attacking Israel, it can be argued that
that could be a devastating and strategically very
bad move because you're absolutely correct.
You've got the Syrian National Army who are
ultimately propped, funded back by the Turks directly.
This is no secret.
You've got the Kurds right now resisting, resisting,
holding onto their powers, their lands in the
east.
You've got the southern rebels.
You've got various factions.
Most of whom are eventually...
Is ISIS still there?
Not at all, really.
There might be some sleeper cells, but they
don't control any land or they don't have
any significant presence on the ground.
But there is a concern that once these
free lands start operating and functioning normally, that's
when ISIS will come to ruin the party,
as they always do.
And I'm sure external entities with nefarious agendas
will no doubt activate groups like that to
ensure that Syria and a future Syria will
have further challenges.
But yeah, I mean, to consolidate the ranks
of the rebel factions for them to then
form a new national army, is that a
priority or is fighting Israel a priority, especially
when 80% of its military capabilities have
been destroyed and most of the rebel factions,
the fighters don't have the knowledge how to
operate the said weaponry that's been destroyed?
I think we have to give them time.
I would hope that there's more assertive and
scathing words to make their position clear that
Syria will not tolerate this.
But for now, there's a lot of pragmatism
and a lot of diplomacy.
You know, al-Julani can be praised for
that and no doubt he will be criticised
for that as well.
Okay.
And talking about praise and criticism, a lot
of things on Twitter have been praising and
criticising you actually.
Indeed.
And me and everyone else.
But the point is, I think now what
people have seen in the pro-Palestine movement
is somewhat of a split, let's be honest.
I had a couple of guys, Jason Hinkle
and some other people attack me.
I didn't really respond to it because I
just thought, you know, this is not what
we're looking for now to create some kind
of a rift or division.
So it's water off a duck's back.
But did you ever see Jackson Hinkle and
these guys as any meaningful allies in this?
I just, you know, I appreciate the fact
that he had a pro-Palestinian, you know,
positioning.
And obviously he was one of the big
figures that were disseminating information about Palestine.
And I think that in a way, I
don't want to discourage that, you know, even
because I try to put myself as a
secondary priority now.
I mean, in the beginning, I think I
would have just been a bit more knee
jerk about it and said, you know, F
you, you know, he was, you know, body
shaming me and all those kind of things
is all bringing the body out.
And, you know, yeah, yeah.
But, you know, it was what it was.
I mean, him and a few other guys
from my side, you had, I don't know,
a couple of other guys.
So obviously what's happened is and what you're
referring to, correct me if I'm wrong, is
obviously the traditional allies, allies from the left,
the kind of anti-war, anti-imperialist leftists
and socialists.
So within that grouping would fall Professor David
Miller, who had that landmark tribunal case against
Bristol University, which has set a legal precedent
for anyone who gets discriminated for holding anti
-Israel views.
We've obviously had...
He's done good things for...
There's no doubt that that legal case has
set a legal precedent, would no doubt would
help Muslims and non-Muslims from moving forward,
anyone who's discriminated for espousing anti-Israel views.
He was a good pro-Palestine ally at
one point, you know.
Yeah, of course.
And as with George Galloway, as with Max
Blumenthal, the Grey Zone guys, there's been many
figures and individuals who in the last 14
months, you know, everyone has kind of been
singing off the same hymn sheet and that's
ultimately advocating and being a voice for the
Palestinians that are being genocided in Gaza.
And George's views on the Uyghur situation, George
Galloway, George Galloway's position on the Uyghurs and
the Syria situation was no secret, right?
Yeah, I knew that.
So even when, whether you engaged him or
when I engaged him for the general elections,
those views were no secret of his, right?
But the surprise was the likes of David
Miller, who in a podcast with me, he
basically said to me, the Syrians need to
get over it, right?
Get over what exactly?
The fact that they've been defeated by Bashar
al-Assad and that they were on the
wrong side and they rose up and they
got blasted for it.
So say that again, which Syrians?
David Miller said to me in a podcast,
when I asked him, look, so many Syrians
have died, suffered as a result.
They need to get over that.
They need to get over that.
That's disgusting, really.
That's disgusting, right?
Because the Syrian people and the Palestinian people
are essentially the same people, really.
The same people, same tribe, same lineage, same
heritage.
They're all Shami.
All Shami, yeah.
So, you know, I had a choice, Hijab,
to leave that bit in or to edit
it out because I knew how that was
going to be received.
But I purposely left that segment in and
I actually got blasted for it by some
quarters.
But did you not push back a lot?
No, I wanted him to just carry on
and say what he's saying so people understand
that.
You didn't need to push back.
I didn't need to because there you go,
he's going to tell you exactly what he
thinks.
Give him enough rope and then he'll hang
himself.
And I think that's a strategy that a
lot of people miss.
People sometimes say to me, of late, you've
been doing very softball interviews, not necessarily.
No, it's good like that sometimes.
It's a bit like Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan, he had an evolution as well
in the way he's...
Just let people talk.
Especially in a podcast setting, especially if you're
doing it as a podcast.
It's not hard talk.
Do you know what I mean?
Not always.
And just let people talk.
And naturally, when you make them feel comfortable,
the mask slips if there's a mask to
slip.
And in the case of David Miller, there
was.
How could you tell hundreds and thousands of
Syrians, of lots of brothers, sons, daughters, wives,
have had to leave and cross the Mediterranean
Sea in such horrific conditions to get over
it?
I had a choice to either take that
out or leave it.
And his mask has slipped.
Now he's having unhinged meltdowns, as is George
Galloway, when he said, I give up on
the Arabs.
And, you know, resorting to the same dehumanising
language to basically criticise the other side.
Scott Ritter as well.
Scott Ritter, oh my God.
He said Islam is a disease.
Did he say that?
Yeah, on the Propaganda Co podcast with that
brother from the US.
So why is he saying that?
Saying that, obviously, because...
Islam itself or Islamism?
Well, whatever.
He said Islam or Islamism.
Okay, well, it's a big difference.
Let's be fair.
Okay, but Islam or...
I'm very sure that he said Islam, but
correct me if I'm wrong.
And Scott, if I got it wrong, I
don't care.
So either way, we know that when it
comes to not being aligned to your political
binaries, you won't think twice to use these
labels.
Now, if you were to close your eyes
and just read some of these tweets out
from George Galloway, from David Miller, from Craig
Murray, from Scott Ritter, from some of these
guys who have been notable contributors in the
last 14 months, you'd have think that this
was a neocon Zionist right-wing warmonger.
You know, dehumanizing anyone remotely associated, affiliated or
supportive of the Syrian revolution as ISIS headchoppers,
Takfiri Wahhabis.
Come on, this is the exactly same 9
-11 war on terror Bush us against them.
And there's not even any kind of like
finesse.
There's not even an attempt to present the
arguments without resorting to this dehumanizing label.
Because for our anti-imperialist friends on the
left, there's a binary hijab.
It's either you're on the side of the
NATO-led imperialists and the Zionist agenda, or
you're in the anti-imperialist camp, which is
basically Russia, China and so forth.
But their blind spot is the fact that
they're very convenient about ignoring, downplaying or defending
the said crimes of China, the said crimes
of Russia, who have equally amount of blood
on their hands of the Muslims.
So I think it was necessary.
I know you have an approach whereby necessarily
don't shake the boat.
If you've done good for Palestine, khair, crack
on.
I'm not going to disrupt that.
But I think Syria was a litmus test.
And I, from a self-reflective point of
view, perhaps some of these guys were a
blind spot for some Muslim organizations.
But I also believe that non-Muslims, there
is no permanent alliances of non-Muslims.
There's strategic, specific, goal-based, campaign-based, agenda
-based alliances.
Christians and Muslims get together to clean up
the streets of prostitutes and drugs.
I get that.
Muslims and non-Muslims come together, left or
right, for the cause of Palestine.
I get that.
But there's no permanent alliances.
From my understanding of the deen and our
scripture, there is no permanent alliances with non
-Muslims, because the nature of kuffar is inconsistent.
It's here and there.
They're with you today.
They'll be gone tomorrow.
And that applies to the left and the
right.
So, I'm glad that Syria brought out the
true colors of some of these individuals, who
for 14 months have enjoyed platform, access, proliferation,
because of the Gaza cause.
Many of us were hoping that seeing what
they saw in Gaza, that it would humanize
the Syrians more.
That you'd understand that the Syrians have been
facing this for 13 years.
Why do you differ between the Palestinians and
the Syrians?
But they didn't even hang about.
I mean, look, George Galloway, on the day
of the German Christmas market attack, he already
jumped onto the assumption and the bandwagon that
the perpetrator was a Muslim extremist, the type
of extremism that the West supports abroad, indirectly
referring to Syria.
We had Craig Murray.
Did he then retract that?
I'm not sure if he retracted or deleted,
but then he started retweeting you and me
and our positions.
That's a good thing, isn't it?
Give him some credit for that one.
Yeah, but the thing is, you didn't hang
about to jump on the bandwagon.
We had Craig Murray, the former British ambassador
to Uzbekistan, a staunch pro-Palestine activist, telling
people that, by the way, if anyone supports
the Syrian revolution, you can report them to
the police, because the Syrian revolution is being
led by HHS, which is a proscribed group,
so if you find anyone supporting the Syrian
revolution, you can report them to the police.
Look at this behaviour, brother.
Overnight, masks fell, they started switching up.
Craig Murray.
Who's that?
Former British ambassador to Uzbekistan.
That's a very unusual position, isn't it?
Yeah, but now he's a bit more rogue
these days.
So he's a Twitter guy?
He has some presence beyond.
He does have a long diplomatic accolades, but
just on this issue, it seems like your
traditional white lefties always have their favourite Arab
dictator.
It's something about Gamal Abdel Nasser that they
like, and Bashar al-Assad that they like,
and Saddam that they like, and Gaddafi that
they like, and Sisi that they like.
There's something about them.
If you love them so much, go live
there, isn't it?
Go live there, see if they give you
a job.
No, they might do it.
They might give him a job.
These guys will definitely.
If they appraise them highly enough, they'll give
him a job.
But I just can't accept this kind of
like, you know, in the case of David
Miller, you know, telling Muslims that if you
really want an Islamic revival, that you need
to align yourself with a type of revolutionary
theology like the 1979 revolution in Iran.
But who the * are you to be
telling Muslims where they should be aligning their
siyasa from?
Who are you?
Well, siyasa for those.
Yeah, for politics.
Your politics.
Who the * are you to be telling
Muslims by the way, your revivalist politics and
methodologies should be aligned to Khomeini in 1979?
Shut your mouth.
That's none of your business.
Don't concern yourself.
Your area of expertise is X, Y, and
Z.
Stick to those lanes.
What's your view on Iran and their kind
of interactions with Israel?
Because some people say what's happened now, the
axis of resistance has been weakened.
Severely.
That goes without saying.
But let me posit this to our viewers
and listeners.
Iran was present in Syria for the last
15, 20 years.
That didn't prevent a genocide in Gaza, did
it?
Iran was very much present in Syria.
And Bashar al-Assad didn't do anything himself.
Didn't do nothing himself.
Because a lot of the guys, a lot
of the guys are like, you know, what
are these guys going to do?
And it's been, as you mentioned, two weeks.
But we know that's a hypothetical question, a
futuristic question.
But we already know the actual fact of
the matter, which is that what did Bashar
al-Assad do?
Nothing.
And let me posit this as well.
If the Syrian rebels were truly American stooges
and were American agents and were basically in
the pockets of the U.S. and Israel,
how is it that for the last 20,
30 years, Israel has not bombed those said
stockpiles and chemical weapons and naval fleet when
doing Bashar's rule?
That's because he never posed a threat.
Some would say that the supply lines, for
example, from Iran all the way through to
Hezbollah, for example.
We'll try telling Syrians who do not see
the axis of resistance as the axis of
resistance.
They see them as the axis of oppression.
Try convincing 25 million Syrians.
Did he make the argument that somehow the
Iranians are arming Hamas as well?
I mean, I'm yet to see.
But how would it, geographically?
No, no.
I asked Roshan this.
Because Roshan presented this argument.
He was like, you know, the land route
by which Iran used to provide weapons to
Hezbollah.
But what weapons received Hamas?
How would they do it?
Through the Mediterranean?
Or how would they do it?
I wouldn't know.
They only had the land route.
But there were definitely Iranian weapons reaching Hezbollah
in Lebanon.
There's no two ways about that.
But how much of those weapons were reaching
the resistance groups in Gaza is highly questionable.
Because it has to go all through Israel.
I mean, let's make no mistake.
How would they do it?
Through the Mediterranean or how?
Let's make no mistake.
That one year where Mohammad Morsi ruled for
a year, the Rafah gate was just open.
And in that one year, whatever was transferred
to Gaza in preparation for whatever moves they
were going to pull against Israel, happened during
that one year.
And some have said that that was his
sadqa jadiyah to the Palestinians.
To keep that Rafah gate open for a
year.
Someone could argue that he didn't engage in
war with Israel, even despite the fact that
Israel did actually bombard Gaza in his premiership.
He played the key role of bringing a
ceasefire and bringing an end to that.
Something that Sisi has not been able to
do in the last 14 months and doesn't
even show any appetite to do that.
But look, what were we talking about?
We were talking about the left and our
allies.
Let's wrap up on this.
Yeah, what do you think?
They're not permanent allies.
What's your way of dealing with them?
They're not permanent allies.
Because I see, you know, there's a ceasefire,
open fire.
Yeah.
On one of them.
Look.
Mr. Ahmed, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Suleiman Ahmed, the ex-space king.
Interesting individual, an obscure figure.
He's also quite an active pro-Palestine individual,
isn't he?
Yeah, in the last two years, three years,
but I encourage people to go onto his
account and search how often he spoke about
these said subjects before October the 7th.
That's fine.
People wake up and have different awakenings at
different times.
But I just take these kind of new
emerging contributors and pundits with caution, especially if
there's no background checks on them.
At the end of the day, if you
want to know who your teachers are, who
your murabbis are, who your mentors are, you
can do that.
You can do the same with me.
Is he an academic?
I looked at his profile.
I think he did have a few.
He's got a lot of acumen, but no
one can really vouch for him.
All we know is that he moved around
with Atabek Shukrov, another controversial figure.
Who's that?
I think he's an Uzbek Hanafi sheikh, but
quite a modernist.
A fair amount of people made takfir on
him.
And he kind of had a legal dispute
with him over a book that was written.
Is his sheikh Sunni?
Who?
Ahmad.
I don't care enough to know, to be
honest.
He's hanging around with the Hanafi guys.
I don't know.
He must be.
Just the very fact that he's got this
mention in your podcast, it's huge for him.
MashaAllah.
Big up to you, Sunni.
Maybe we could do a podcast with you
and him.
I think that would be good.
I'm not interested in that.
Yeah?
I'm not interested in that.
Get some opposing views.
No, no.
He needs to issue apologies first for lying.
He needs to issue apologies for making outrageous
lies against another Muslim.
You said something.
You're a Zionist.
Well, not just us.
You said all the Dawa bros, which encompasses
many of the brothers, are all Zionist doojis,
are Zionist agents, are being funded by Salafist
groups, all this malarkey.
Look, these are lazy arguments.
If you have an issue with the Syrian
revolution or you're a sceptic of the Arab
Spring, present your ideas based on reality and
based on evidences.
To say that someone is an ISIS, Al
-Qaeda, NATO headchopper, it's just a lazy argument.
To say that you're being funded by Saudi
and you're a Zionist agent.
That's what the Zionists are saying about Hamas
and those who support the Palestinian resistance or
whatever it may be.
And I'll posit one last thing to our
allies on the left.
How is it that you're absolutely cool with
masked Islamists when it's the Gaza-Palestinian type
but you have a problem when it's the
Syrian type?
Where's the consistency in this?
Would you say Hamas and HTS have a
very similar ideology?
No, because HTS is Asal Roots, not now.
Asal Roots was Al-Qaeda, wasn't it?
Al-Nusra...
But they no longer speak like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The transnational element of it, even the theological
approach to excommunication, these things, they've moved away
from that.
So as it stands now, is there a
similarity?
Are they close to the Muslim Brotherhood?
Yeah, with the type of pragmatism and diplomacy
we're seeing from Mr. Sharad, he's definitely showing
more indications of being an Ikhwani than he
is a Salafi, to be honest.
Because that type of engagement and articulation of
political positions is more associated with the Ikhwan
than it is with Salafi Jihadi groups, right?
And he's showing that.
Now, I don't know theologically where he aligns
himself, I still do believe that he's a
Salafi.
In fact, a journalist from the Sunday Times
asked one of his right-hand men that
question, that where does Mr. Sharad position himself
theologically?
And his guy said to him, that's for
him and him alone, and he won't look
to implement this on the rest of Syrians.
But I think he leans towards the kind
of Salafi athletic position.
But everyone has to be a bit of
Ikhwani in politics, right?
When it comes to the world stage.
New world order now, isn't it?
Yeah, it's been a seismic shift.
The actions of resistance have delivered a severe
blow.
It'll be interesting to see how Iran emerges
from this.
Do you think Iran is the...
People see it as the answer.
If there's going to be any Nusra or
anything, do you think any Nusra is going
to come from Iran?
Historically, it's never come from the Shia.
I'm not even making this a sectarian issue.
Looking at 1400 years of Islamic history, all
the famous battles and liberation movements that liberated
Al-Aqsa, that fought the Mongols in Ain
Jalut, that conquered Constantinople, wherever it may be,
for whatever reason, it was determined that it
was never at the hands of Shia polities
and leaders.
So, I am not in the position that
Iran will be Ahl al-Nusra, that these
are the people who will give victory and
be marching.
It's just a feeling.
Do you think they're more rhetorical than they
are...
We could definitely learn.
People are calling them paper tigers now.
Well, we could do with some paper tigers.
Tell me about it.
In a situation where there's no tigers, paper
tigers...
It's better than nothing.
It's better than nothing.
I wish more Sunni governments adopted the rhetorical
side of it.
Paper tiger approach.
Erdogan does it a little bit here and
there.
He does it here and there, but then
his policies completely contradict what he does and
says in massive protests.
But I wish that more Sunni Arab Muslim
governments took a more rhetorical stance because that
lays the foundations for future generations.
Right, Hijab?
Your objective could just be, I'm going to
give a fiery speech and not actually deliver
anything as a head of state.
You don't know who in that audience...
They know that most of the Arab states
are not going to do anything like that.
I'm saying that even if they did, Hamid,
there could be someone in that audience, attentively
listening, that you could inspire, that could be
the Salahuddin of tomorrow.
That could be the Nuruddin of tomorrow.
That could be the Baybars of tomorrow.
Or the Saif Qutb of tomorrow.
There absolutely can be.
So I don't think there's no value in
rhetoric.
Rhetoric, it creates a public opinion.
It creates a certain sentiment around a cause.
And I think it's important.
And Iran is the best at doing that.
In fact, it can be argued that they
duped many Sunnis.
As a result of this whole pro-Palestine
talk, obviously it's debatable to how committed they
were or not.
But the point is, as a result of
their stance on Palestine, many gave them that
husna dhan.
To the extent that they were willing to
even forget Syria for it.
So obviously Iran has got loads of introspection
to do.
How they're going to emerge from this.
Don't write them off as a regional power.
But they need to understand that they backed
the wrong man in Syria.
Moving on to something a little bit more,
let's say a bit more fun, a bit
more interesting.
I mean, not more interesting.
What you've said is very, very interesting.
More light-hearted, maybe.
Go on.
You've been having a lot of podcasts with
American Da'at, different kinds of individuals.
Did anything stand out from your conversations?
Have you had one with Noman Ali Khan
recently?
Or anybody else that you thought was, this
is an interesting thing or analysis that you
thought was interesting?
So the last American Da'at that I
had on the podcast was Noman Ali Khan.
And it was an interesting one.
Because he's obviously been somewhat off the radar.
Of course, he's been carrying on with Bayyinat
and his projects there.
And he's doing a phenomenal job with that
stuff.
There's no denying that.
Obviously, there was that controversy in 2018, that
fallout with him and Omar Suleiman.
And there was all of that happening.
And in that podcast with him, I generally
found him to be a wealth of knowledge.
He's definitely someone who his accolades speak for
itself.
But there was an interesting thing that he
said.
And again, I let it slide because I
knew he was going to get checked.
In the comment section and people are going
to check him.
But sometimes it's good to just let people
talk.
Again, as I mentioned earlier in this conversation,
if you start countering, people's backs go up.
And you won't get the truth out of
them, or the full position.
And the thing that he said was that
he believes that the US is 30 years
ahead of the UK.
As a country or Muslim?
The Muslim community.
Now, if you'd have said to me from
the perspective of socio-economic progression, literacy, academia,
there could be a case presented for that.
But if you're saying that from the position,
from the perspective of Islamic activism, dawah, the
preservation of the community, its values, being more
uncompromising as a community, that's outrageous.
Britain, Alhamdulillah, stands out amongst all countries in
the West.
And everyone talks about the Muslim community of
the West.
It's dawah, it's du'a, it's activists, it's
groups, it's movements, it's jamaat, it's that on
the one hand we can get together to
prevent LGBT Palestine, on the same day we'll
have a debate with Ash'aris and Atheris.
We're that active.
And Alhamdulillah, if you go to certain communities
in the UK, you will see how engrossed
and well-established the Muslim communities are in
terms of our institutions.
So did he not set the parameters?
No, he didn't.
I think he kind of generally said it.
And even when he said that, I found
it a bit strange.
Did he give any reasoning?
I think he was talking more about how
people identify themselves.
Because now he's coming back to me.
He said that American Muslims don't have a
conflict between being American and Muslim.
But for me, that is the problem.
What he's saying is a mark of progress,
is what I felt is the problem.
Actually, it's also a difference in British culture
and American culture.
Because I feel like in America, what it
is, it's like they've got an assimilationist culture.
So if you go ask an African American,
where are you from in Africa?
He'll say, I'm African American.
That's what I am.
He'd proudly say American.
Whereas if you go here to a Nigerian,
he'll tell you what Igbo, Yoruba, how's the
way it is.
And even the sub-tribe.
And I do think there's a strength in
a person being able to do that.
Knowing exactly where the lineage is.
I think it's actually, if anything, a maqsad
of sharia.
In a way, because the naseb, knowing exactly
where you're from and stuff like that, is
a good thing.
But I don't see how that would be,
I agree with you, a marker of progress.
So I find that a tad concerning.
Because I thought, if you're saying that one
of the markers of progress is that American
Muslims aren't conflicted over their country of birth
or patriotism and their Muslim identity, that is
a problem.
Because if you don't see no issue there,
then how do you grapple with foreign policy
issues?
Or America's involvement in the death and destruction
of the Muslim world?
Or how it treats minorities domestically under CVE
laws?
So it was interesting that he mentioned that.
He didn't mention overtly that he's talking about
socio-economic progress.
But even then, people forget how big America
is, the 50 states.
And one state is comparatively different from another.
If you go to the Muslim community in
Philadelphia, or the Muslim community in New York,
versus the Muslim community in Texas, or California.
When I went to California, I found that,
as you mentioned, socio-economically, they were so
much better off than the Muslim community.
In the UK, for example, in London, a
lot of them are working class.
In Birmingham as well, and these kind of
big cities.
But then if you go to Philadelphia, actually
they're working class people.
Or Detroit or Michigan.
Yeah, exactly.
Do you know what I mean?
A lot of the things don't apply in
the same way.
Even racial demographics.
You've got African American Muslims, for example, Philadelphia
and Detroit, as you mentioned, and New York
as well.
But then you've got subcontinental Muslims in California,
etc.
And I feel like the ones in the
blue states are more likely to be liberal.
Yes.
And the ones in the red states are
more likely to be a bit more shadid.
Yeah, but the thing is, what I have
a problem with is this, right?
There's this kind of stereotyping and caricaturing that
we do to our cousins from across the
pond and they do it to us.
So the stereotype of the British Muslim is
that he or she is sectarian.
They generally come from a working class background.
They'll probably come from a ghettoised community which
is demographically similar.
That's possibly true.
That's fine.
But I don't see that as a bad
thing.
I don't see Muslims living amongst Muslims necessarily
being a bad thing.
Maybe the sectarianism thing has caused issues like
in the vision and stuff like that.
But I would say that that keeps our
fire alive.
It keeps the fire in the belly alive.
So long as we can unify on key
causes and stuff like the Palestine cause.
Now the stereotype of the American Muslim is
that he or she is liberal, he or
she is American first before they are Muslim.
He or she is very open to diluting
and compromising on core Islamic values and principles.
Do you think there's truth in that?
Not in the African American community.
Not in the African community.
They're a bit more Shadid for sure but
they're the oldest of the communities.
So there's this kind of caricaturing that we
do to each other.
I just don't see that the markers of
progress as mentioned by brother Notman Ali Khan
was actually a sign of progress is actually
a sign of concern.
If you're marking progress that Muslims in America
are not conflicted about their identity and their
belonging and that's a good thing.
I don't think Muslims in the UK or
in Europe have that issue.
To be honest, the point you initially made
about religiosity, there are some studies and I
looked at some surveys like British Attitude Surveys
for example and also even YouGov and Pew
and other organisations have asked questions to Muslims
in the UK about Sharia law and I
think that's probably one of the best ways
to gauge someone's religiosity because if someone is
more likely to reject very Qata'i aspects
of the religion they are less likely to
be religious.
So you'll find quite a big chasm of
difference actually between those.
There are methodological issues at hand when talking
about sociology and stuff in terms of how
this, for example, data has been collected etc.
Nevertheless, as you mentioned with religiosity I think
there is a concern across the pond because
the concern is that the Americans in particular,
not so much the Canadians as much but
the Americans have a very strong culture more
so than, in terms of the patriotism I
think it's much stronger.
You're more likely, especially in the red states
but throughout the country, you're more likely to
find it okay to wave an American flag
you know, this kind of thing and desecrating
the flag has more of a implication there
whereas in the UK that's not as it's
not like that.
In fact, many people in London, in the
big cities and stuff if you see someone,
unless it's the World Cup or one of
these kind of events, with the flag you'd
think that this person is, for example a
nationalist or something, right wing do you know
what I mean?
So it almost carries in some areas, for
better or for worse I'm not making a
judgement but it also carries some kind of
a negative connotation So the question is when
you have a strong culture like in America
a strong American, you know, dominant culture how
do you respond to that as an American
guy?
Do you assimilate?
Because when you do that, the identity becomes
kind of infused there's more likelihood one could
argue that somebody, a woman could just say
actually if I'm an American Muslim or a
man could say, then liberalism then feminism We've
already seen the rotten fruits of that among
some institutions without necessarily mentioning their names in
terms of their output and their position on
stuff like LGBTQ alliances same-* marriages, abortion
the legalisation of cannabis we've seen certain organisations
take certain positions A lot of them have
clarified like Yaqeen recently have made some major
clarifications I'm not singing out Yaqeen at all
I'm just saying that those who adopted those
positions, obviously it was adopted to begin with
because there was some laxity in the first
place, right?
It's a back-footed approach, isn't it?
Here's one thing I would say have you
ever seen anything from that side of the
pond maybe with the exception of Daniel on
that level of reaching everyone where there's a
refutation of feminism Not really, no I feel
like there is a real one thing that
me and Ali noticed when we went to
California and other places in America as well
is that feminism still has a lot more
currency feminism and liberalism has a lot more
currency and the problem I see with it
is that it actually disturbs someone's religiosity because
when you have a woman now who's reading
the Quran and she's reading all these verses
that verse and the other verse if you
have a presupposition or a feministic presupposition you're
going to approach these verses in a certain
way where you're going to have severe doubts
because what is shaping your morality?
Is it Quran and Sunnah?
Or is it going to be feministic writings
and positions and whatever it may be Feminism
actually causes Rida Funny enough There's no question
about For example, Yaqeen themselves they did one
of the only studies I've come across about
doubts We did our own things where we're
asking people where you get your doubts from
and stuff like that using the tools that
we have and it seems to me like
a lot of the where Muslims get their
doubts is from the moral questions of Islam
and let's be honest the major moral questions
in Islam a lot of them are to
do with gender issues and so if someone
starts off with a presupposition of feminism which
a lot of them do then they're less
likely to be convinced Do you know what
I mean?
So that is the head of the snake
Feminism, liberalism and all these things they're the
head of the snake and I don't feel
like there is a confrontational I feel with
a lot of the American Duaat in general
they will make they will make criticisms about
some of the approaches they'll say you're a
very angry approach very confrontational approach and some
of those criticisms are valid sometimes we can
be overly confrontational but on the flip side
of things we need to see more of
a courageous approach from their side less of
an acquiescence approach less of an appeasing approach
to the feminist side to be honest because
I would rather be accused of arrogance than
be accused of cowardice and both are bad
and what's also quite surprising is that they
have far more leniency in terms of their
free speech laws than the Brits have you
can be far more unequivocal and scathing in
your criticism of said ideologies than we can
in the UK where you can literally get
arrested or get a gagging order as hate
speech so it does come as a surprise
that the American constitution allows people to be
very open in criticising other ideologies and religions
it's a shame that we don't see them
take up that access whereas we out here
in the UK we've got far more stringent
free speech laws hate speech laws especially in
the wake of the race riots that we
saw recently now the fishing net of curtailing
speech and critical speech is so far and
wide now but yet you find Muslims in
the UK far more scathing and unequivocal in
our position against feminism I think a lot
of it is to do with the fact
that you mentioned it we grew up in
a more rough environment let's be honest you
grew up in a rough environment and the
issue is when you go to secondary school
my experience in secondary school the
experience of the average person in the secondary
school is that you're going to be harmed
you're going to be bullied it's going to
happen so you might as well get ready
for that but if you don't have that
prior training we had the training in the
secondary schools in the playgrounds the older kids
would come to us and try and do
whatever they tried to do with us on
the roadsides especially in the UK it's good
Tanbiyah it just gets you ready for the
real world and the kind of confrontations and
the obstacles you may face in your dawah
and your activism I always maintain that many
of our brothers across the pond they live
in a bit of a bubble but at
the same time the husn adhan can be
applied to them that they are living under
the belly of the beast and therefore there's
a far higher level of sensitivities that they
have to apply when dealing with their communities
I get that but there has to be
a fine line where you're treading between being
sensitive and compassionate and merciful to your congregation
and basically taking a biscuit where you're going
to open the floodgate to apostasy and doubt
yourself so that's a balancing act that they
have to deal with and we have to
deal with it in our own way and
we have to deal with our harshness and
whatever issues we have I think the Americans
are cool man they're good people especially on
the politics and marketing the way they market
their dawah and the quality of it and
they're far more generous they have deeper pockets
they fund the dawah projects way more than
the Brits do so there's good that we
can take from them and I'm sure there's
lots of good that they can take from
us without a shadow of a doubt they
need to actually right so you've got a
fatwa yeah?
what fatwa for?
you know what fatwa he's been sharing it
around like a kid with a toy I'm
very happy I had some fatwas before but
not from like a sheikh a dead dog
obviously for those who don't know it's about
the recent MMA fight which obviously I won
by TKO in the third round Alhamdulillah I
tried to finish the job not leave it
to the referee it was a great experience
I'll be honest with you it was a
tumultuous and very tempestuous in terms of emotions
but in terms of in terms of the
ruling a lot of people are going to
say and this is probably the number one
question I have been asked about is it
halal or haram look here's the thing there
is a hadith and I'm very aware of
that hadith and I've spoken about the hadith
at length which is a sound an authentic
hadith and it comes in slightly different variations
which goes if any of you fights your
brother then let him abstain from hitting the
face because Allah created Adam on his image
now before I continue I did get a
fatwa from Sheikh Al-Dadaw based on the
context that you're talking about which is that
things are very rough at the moment they're
very difficult in the west look we've got
the far right movement we've got people all
over the place that want to really end
us, eliminate us and we have a protective
role as men especially over ourselves and over
our children etc.
and if you ask a fight expert as
I have asked Firas Zahabi which as you
know you had an interview with him as
well considered to be really the best one
of the best experts in fighting in the
world, in fact I was just reading a
book of George Saint Pierre who's considered as
you know is one of the best MMA
fighters of all time if not the best
it's called The Will to Fight or something
like that in the book and he has
a whole chapter dedicated to Firas Zahabi actually
and of course he would it shows you
the level that I'm talking about and the
reason why this is important is because Al
-Hukma ala Sheikh Firaun there's a principle in
the Surah Al-Fiqh which says that making
a ruling on something is a subsidiary branch
of knowing what that thing is anyway, so
I told Sheikh Haddad, I communicated to him
through I sent many things through WhatsApp and
stuff like that that this is the context
and actually a full fight we're still talking
about combat, hand to hand combat according to
Firas Zahabi you really need to know how
to get punched in the face, how to
deal with that, to calibrate the sympathetic nervous
system, the autonomic nervous system you're not going
to know how to fight fully just doing
for example the grappling sports yes it's a
part of fighting What about sparring?
Yeah so that's the point I asked him
about sparring, hard sparring everything and he said
it's okay and even the competition aspect of
it he accepted as okay as well.
Did he?
Yes he did He said it's permissible?
He said it's permissible, both things he said
it's permissible because what I explained was that
you've got training camp before, it puts you
at a different level and the question is
about advantage in the Muslim world obviously this
is not him, this is me elaborating I'm
saying he allowed both, he allowed the sparring
and he allowed the and the competing as
well so long as there is no like
for example alcohol and gambling and all these
other things that you know alcohol, gambling, ring
girls all the stuff that you know the
Sharia is very clear about.
If you avoid those things and the Aura
has to be covered, if you avoid those
things he allowed it but the point I'm
making, so this is one of the great
scholars living today he's got Markas Takwir Al-'Ulama
is considered to be one of the biggest
centres of Islamic learning in the world in
order to join the Markas you have to
have memorised the Quran in two Riwayahs not
just in one Riwayah and guess how many
years it takes to graduate from this Markas?
17 years, so you can imagine the levels
we're talking about, for example he's the teacher
of Saeed Al-Kamli, who is considered one
of the biggest scholars in the Arab world
at the moment so he is the scholar
of one of the biggest scholars of the
Arab world today and for him to bring
a fatwa like this I think is very
very very significant, now so this is the
first thing the second thing is in terms
of pre-existing fatwas because there are pre
-existing fatwas I can read out, I mean
if you want but I'll just tell you
them anyway, of scholars of the Hanafi Madhhab,
it is a minority view who say things
like yuqrah an yuqsad al-wajh, for example
this is what Al-Tarabushti mentions Abu al
-Fadlah Hassan Ibn Al-Husayn Muhammad Al-Tarabushti
who is a 13th century, 1263 century, he
died 1263 contemporary with Ibn Taymiyyah scholar, and
someone could argue well in the Hanafi Madhhab
you have you have a different taqsim, you
have what you call karaha tanzihiyya and karaha
tahrimiyya but then if you look at the
works of Mufti Ali Qari and others qila
n-nadb so they're saying it's mustahabb that
you follow the ruling of don't hit the
face so if you combine everything it's very
clear that there is a minority opinion among
the shurah big scholars like Al-Qurani like
Mufti Ali Qari like as I mentioned Al
-Tarabushti who do indicate that we're talking about
karaha here or we're talking about n-nadb
in terms of sunnah not to hit the
face that's a minority opinion, so already we
have an opinion in Islam and then you
have the question of maslaha because you know
there's a qaeda in Islam that says whatever
the wajib is not completed with, it is
wajib itself, so for example if you need
to do hajj if you need to do
hajj then you need to take a plane
taking a plane is as wajib as doing
the hajj everything to fulfill that wajib or
fard becomes wajib as well so then if
we agree it's wajib for the Muslim man
to protect himself and protect his family and
we also know from the context that we
live in that non-Muslims have an advantage
if you're telling them, if you're telling us
that they can tahajjud spa, they can do
the whole thing and we can only do
for example jujitsu in certain context or wrestling
in certain context where you're not wearing because
you can't compete because the aura is going
to be definitely compromised so you're putting so
many restrictions someone will say how can you
do this when it's not darurah because the
principle is ad-darurah to be halal which
is that let's assume this hadith is talking
about it's haram, let's assume the minority opinion
is not correct, it's haram therefore to hit
the face how can you make something haram,
halal and it's not a darurah in the
sense that if you don't do it then
you won't die so the answer I would
give to that is the following scholars from
almost all schools of thought, the Hanafis, the
Deobandis the Salafis, everybody accepts that car insurance
is allowed now car insurance in the majority
opinion it's haram, but you can't claim off
it that's when it becomes haram no problem,
some different scholars will say different things but
they allow it, if I wanted to get
one car, two car three car, a scholar
would allow it so here's the thing now
let's say car insurance is haram, but everyone's
allowed it but if I don't if in
London, especially in London if I don't have
a car can I not get from place
A to place B?
I can I can take the Uber, I
can take the underground, one of the best
underground systems in the entire world I can
take the bus, I can take the night
bus I can take the line bike there's
so many options that you're spoiled actually for
choice there's no classification in which you can
argue that if I don't go into my
car and drive it, that I'm going to
die in the classical sense of Darura so
then you have to ask yourself, why did
the scholars of Islam and the Muftis allow
why did they allow driving a car because
of the advantage of the Muslims made it
easier for the Muslims, giving advantage to the
Muslims so my question then would be if
driving a car you're asking yourself this to
those who oppose the view my question would
be, if driving you drive a car, haram
to drive a car with the insurance that
you have it, according to the majority of
scholars if driving a car is allowable because
of the convenience factor and because of the
maslaha factor and because of the taisir factor
and the ease factor, etc, etc, etc then
what is more of a wager for you
to fulfill, for you to get from place
A to point B, or for you to
protect your wife and kids imagine this, let's
be real about this for a second, and
you know this someone who's never fought before,
no fighting not in the streets, not in
the playgrounds not in anything, done no fighting
and that's why with all due respect I
don't respect this position for a man to
be I would never get my daughter, I
would never be married to a man who
has no prior experience zero prior experience fighting
because his role is to protect my daughter
so how is he going to protect his
daughter when there's no proof of concept that
he can protect himself if you've not been
in a situation where you've had to defend
yourself, or even the mere threat that you're
going to be attacked, you may have to
defend yourself is very different to someone who's
never had that experience, exactly it's like water
and oil actually imagine you've got a person
because we've gone through this experience when we're
in year 7 or year 6 or something
where we had to have a fight in
the playground or something and we had to
overcome the nerves and we had to kind
of calibrate our sympathetic nervous system and fight
or flight response and whatever not everyone has
had that experience, especially not Talib A'ilm,
Archetype all he's doing is reading in a
mosque somewhere, okay, and he's never been in
a physical altercation in his life this man
is irresponsible in my opinion the reason why
he's irresponsible is because if the first time
you are going to get into a physical
altercation, it's going to be when you're walking
with your wife and your kids in the
street which is a possibility, 20, 30, 40
% possibility, especially depending on where you live
in the West, and how you dress outside
and stuff, and how you dress exactly your
attire and stuff, if that's the first time
you're doing your wife an injustice look, I'll
posit the following to you the first thing
I'll posit to you is let's concede to
the point that men especially Muslim men, and
even sisters there is actually a need for
them to learn martial arts and combat sports
as a mechanism of self-defense in light
of the heightened Islamophobia the race riots is
a testimony to that what the critics would
say to you, Hijab is that we've accepted
that the hard sparring is fine, the strike
in the face is fine but why the
pay-per-view theatrics and I had to
return all the pay-per-views I made
a loss but you know the walking in,
the build-up the show so I don't
see many people disputing the ruling from the
point of view that there is a need
to defend yourself what about competition and stuff
what about competition, everything that builds up to
it what's a part of that, I think
that's where many would have more trouble competition
gets someone more competent in anything they do
competition is what makes someone more efficient and
everyone knows that, in any field of human
endeavour, whether it's testing and examinations especially in
combat sports but let me come to a
second a point here, which is the following
Islam, you've got two kinds of rulings you've
got the Taaboodi rulings and you have the
Qiasi rulings or Maalool, we can call it
Maalool the Taaboodi ones, it's not clear cut
it's ones which is Ghirmaqool so for example,
why do we pray four rakahs in Isha,
we pray because Allah said so, we don't
actually have a Illah, there's no reason yes,
so the ruling but there's no reason you
just listen and obey so it's Ghirmaqool, there's
actually no reason for it but then you
have a different kind of ruling here which
is the Taaboodi, the Qiasi one or the
Maalool one with the Illah so for example,
easy simple, the easiest example all the Usool
he's using in the book which is the
following, Khamr, linguistically really we're talking about wine,
yeah, with grapes the Illah here is Al
-Iskar Al-Iskar is basically intoxication so what
makes the Khamr Haram is the intoxication so
wherever you find this intoxication, this Illah in
other places, for example if you find it's
Haram, so if it's weed and whatever that's
how they make the ruling how do you
define intoxication?
that's a discussion we can have for another
day but nevertheless that's how you do Qias
you have the Usool and you have something
called the Farah the Usool is where you're
extracting the Illah from and then you put
it on the Farah the issue now is
this let's assume that you are in a
sparring club and five people are watching you
as you hard spar 10, 15, 20 at
what point does it become Haram?
and what's the Illah for that?
because my point is that whether a million
people watch or whether one person watches there
is nothing in Islam that indicates that the
Illah for Tahreem of such a thing or
the causative reasoning of Tahreem is there many
people that watch so in this case if
they say well the theatrics and this and
going out and all that thing, I say
which part of that is Haram so I
can adjust it but you have to bring
some evidence from the Quran Haram aside, I
think what it is it's mostly the appropriateness
of it the ethical appropriateness of Dua or
then it becomes a subsidiary issue I mean
everyone has their Dhauqi look I mean since
you've been doing the preparation for the fight
recently and even Hamza for his boxing bout
that he had, obviously your one was more
documented, there was a whole video up to
it whereas Hamza's wasn't but he released a
video and both faced criticisms from my observation
you have those that you're not going to
convince that striking the face is permissible then
go do wrestling so let's put them aside
because you're not convincing these brothers and sisters
any striking of the face is Haram, unethical,
bomb we're now dealing with the next group
and the next group is fine for said
reasons of the necessity the need for it
given our climate, the environment we understand that
you have to strike the face to give
yourself the appropriate advantage to defend the face
and all sorts we get that and the
psychological element as well is a huge part,
I think it's in many ways the biggest
part of it.
I think the issue that some have or
many, we don't know what the numbers are
because I had the same from a brother
called, a friend of mine called Taqi, Taqi
Sharif in Syria who was critical.
He's a good man to see he does
beautiful work in Syria and he's been really
oppressed this man hasn't he?
He's been made stateless committed 12 years to
Syria was revoked of his citizenship in absentia,
has raised millions of pounds for the Syrians
he's a real hero this man definitely, there's
no doubt and he's been in the field
and he's made sacrifices some that he's spoken
about and a lot of which he can
never speak about on camera, but I asked
him, on camera and off camera, what's the
issue here?
Oh did he have an issue as well?
What's the issue?
You know he had an issue you mentioned
it the appropriateness of it, should a Da
'i should an Islamic activist, should someone who
is seen as a symbol of the faith,
of the religion, as someone who propagates the
Deen, is it appropriate for them to embark
in such, what he described and others have
described as theatrics train, fight, do what you
need to do.
Does it need to be filmed?
Does it need to be hyped?
Does it need to be PPV?
So it's not an Islamic argument, more now
it's like an aesthetic argument Yeah I believe
so, I believe that because you're not going
to convince those who believe that striking the
face is haram otherwise, they're done and really
we're dealing with the camp here that are
basically saying fine we've accepted your arguments and
we may even adopt that position ourselves but
it's all the other masala that comes with
it that you guys are doing, that's kind
of making it a light matter so I
don't see it as an issue of halal
or haram because you live in that position
or that position, it's more to do with
the appropriateness.
Here's the thing, do you remember the time
when that guy, the Israeli, was going to
fight the Israeli?
Yes and we were liaising with the other
side, yes.
You were the manager right?
We were going through back and forth and
all that kind of thing Imagine how much
would have been at stake if I fought
that guy.
And you smashed him in.
If I smashed him, that's one thing, but
if I got smashed by him, here's the
thing, imagine how much we've got to lose
in terms of prestige in terms of reputation,
like I had already in my mind, I
knew what he was going to do he
was going to go for like heel hooks
and stuff like that and I had in
my mind that if he grabbed the heel
and he broke it, I would allow him
to break it, if he actually got it
and I can't get out of it, I
would allow him to do it, so I
was willing to go everywhere, if he's going
to get me in any submission, I would
go to sleep, if he's going to get
my arm, I would let my arm get
broken I had that in my mind, this
mindset, it's not like any other fight I
would do, because if any other fight, maybe,
no actually I would tap if somebody put
me in a certain position because it's just
a normal bout, but with him, I had
in my mind, it's going to be life
or death to be honest, because I can't,
I wouldn't have been able to live with
the repercussions of facing defeat to a man
like that, who's actually openly IDF so the
stakes, I mean this guy called me out,
you know, he told me to fight him,
but it was all about money with these
guys, he wanted money so because of the
money, we couldn't give him money, he pulled
out and all that kind of thing, but
let's assume that went ahead because that thing
can still happen, not with him necessarily because
we're not going to give him his terms,
but let's say any other person let's say
in speaker's corner someone comes just as they
have in the past, anywhere I go, with
me there's a physical threat, there is a
legitimate physical threat, likewise and with you as
well, so I'm saying that if anything, there
should be more encouragement for me to have
the training to go through the process, so
that if there is a high stakes fight,
I mean this was a big fight almost
half a million people have seen it whatever,
but if it was something with the IDF
guy, it would have been on a different
kind of level, and if he's got like
10 fights, 15, 20 fights in Bellator which
is like the number 2 or 3 promotion
into the UFC in terms of, and he
has all this training, so why am I
putting myself in a disadvantageous position so that
if I do have to fight a guy
like that, he's got so much more psychological
preparedness than I do Let me ask you
something, I asked myself this question you know
when you post a video of yourself training
whether it's weights or some grappling or sparring
that you're doing, whatever it may be, and
you kind of do it like a diary
vlog, or you do it consistently I've questioned
myself I don't do it as much as
I used to Obviously I kept you up
to date with the whole Good Fight documentary
that I made, giving up smoking and getting
into Jiu Jitsu you inspired me to get
into Jiu Jitsu I'm wearing a blue belt
right now So what I'm saying is that
we all have kind of been on this
journey of combat training Our group loves to
do that Absolutely, I'm going to ask you
two questions and I'm going to wrap up
from my part Question number one is when
I post training videos I've always questioned for
what reason and purpose am I doing it
I tell myself that I'm doing it to
encourage other young brothers to get on it
train, be healthy and fit and strong, capable
and competent in any given situation, that's what
I tell myself But then when I'm asleep
at night I do ask myself is there
something more, is there another void I'm trying
to fill, is there something that I'm seeking,
which is not that, I ask myself that
I merely posit to you if you haven't
done that to ask yourself Are we truly
doing it to encourage and empower and get
brothers on it or is there something more
deeper regarding ourselves, number one Number two, what
would you say I think there is something
more deeper regarding ourselves For me anyway For
me there is There's no shame in me
saying that because for me it's me proving
to myself that I can go through these
pain barriers I mean you know and I
know I've been doing this behind the scenes
for the last 10 years, 12, 15 years
Rapping you've been doing for years So I
mean I've just not documented this stuff because
it's kind of like for me All this
time it was like I'm doing this for
me, do you know what I mean Because
I want to be able to protect myself,
I want to be able to have the
confidence, a lot of the confidence I have
on the podiums and the stage and whatever,
actually a large portion of that is because
I know that if the logical end point
comes to be and this becomes a physical
situation, I'll know how to protect myself So
I've always kept this to myself but then
I said to myself If this is a
good thing and you know it's a good
thing لا يؤمن أحدكم حتى يحب لأخيه ما
يحب لنفسه That you don't truly believe until
you love for your brother what you love
for yourself And if you really feel that
this is having a transformative psychological impact, which
I do believe Combat sport will give you
something nothing else will Agreed, there's no two
ways about that Even hormonally, like in a
fight I'm not going to lie to you,
the adrenaline level goes so high Literally if
someone hits you you can't feel a lot
of it Euphoria, the endorphins It's shocking and
then you've got the anxiety of coming out
and fighting in front of people, you can
get knocked out All this kind of stuff,
you're dealing with all of that and I
think going through a process like that, you
cannot get it from anything else, do you
know what I mean?
So I've always wanted to put myself through
that process So that I can prove to
myself that actually you're resilient of the mind
You have mind resilience, you can go through
a process like this, I've done a marathon
some time ago, you'd be surprised to know
Because I'm very heavy, I didn't do a
great time How long was the distance?
It was a half marathon, 13.3 miles
It was in Norway This was like 2016,
I've got the medal for it and everything
In Bergen It's the same concept, I've been
doing competitions in terms of jiu jitsu competitions
I've done maybe like 15 of them Do
you think in another situation, in another era
whereby we lived in a civilisation where there
was mandatory conscription or having to spend x
amount of time Exactly Because we don't have
that There is also this void that we're
trying to fill 100%, I think it's a
part of masculinity I think you're a deficient
man if you don't know how to protect
yourself and your family But do you accept
that in the absence of those things which
were normal for over a thousand years Because
we don't have that Exactly The famous saying
Arabic saying and also an English saying which
is that necessity is the mother of all
invention So if back in the days when
it's not Pax Americana where you're not sitting
in a sedentary lifestyle watching TikTok videos all
day and just going to work and coming
back and this and that and you're watching
this and eating junk and that's your life
When it wasn't a necessity you had to
learn how to fire as a matter of
honour because if you don't you're going to
get ravaged and your wife's going to take
you as a slave 100% But we're
not under medieval conditions so we've become really
a different kind of man I'm sorry to
say I would never respect a man who
can't defend himself I'm not saying that he
has to win There's no honour I can't
lie I don't care how big a Sheikh
you are how big a scholar you are
if you've memorised all six books of Hadith
If you're walking in the street and you're
with your wife and your kids and somebody
comes and swears at your wife, swears at
your kids and tries to humiliate and you
can't respond to that because of the fight
or flight response you have not calibrated it
and you have not worked on it and
you have not trained it because it's a
psychological thing and you don't even realise, you
don't even know what you would do in
that situation and if someone who's doing the
sparring and all that stuff and someone who's
not the one who's doing it will have
a better response because they've trained it if
you put yourself in that situation and then
you flee or you don't act or you
freeze Wallahi you're not a man, you're not
even a man Islamically Look Because the Prophet
said What do you call it?
which is like cowardice and and being very
stingy These two characteristics are what?
Miserliness and cowardice These things the Prophet consistently
mentioned and that's why when brothers if you're
a brother, I'm not going to lie if
somebody says it's haram to me I believe
it's haram blah blah blah whatever and don't
do this and telling me what to do
and you can do this instead and you
don't need this and they're telling me what
you need and what you don't need not
necessarily the Hukam but you're telling me what
you need and what you don't need but
you've never done any of this stuff before
in your life you've never engaged in a
proper physical altercation don't tell me oh but
you don't actually need this and you're going
to become a fight expert all of a
sudden or you don't need this and you
don't need that and in order to confront
this guy you can just do these moves
here and it can go on a YouTube
video no you don't, you have to go
through a practical process Look just to close
the final question I wanted to ask you
how would you respond to those who basically
say that in light of the ruling that
you got from Sheikh Tadil that look it
appears that not just you, that all of
the brothers who are involved in combat sports
which involve striking of the face, ultimately you
guys are seeking rulings which align with what
you actually want to do, what would you
say to that because I've had that question
asked to me I'll say look it's more
to do with the Maslah of the Muslims
and the Maslah of the Muslim approach is
like for example Maqasad of Sharia someone could
argue first of all the five or six
some scholars say necessities that Islam came to
protect property, lineage property, lineage, wealth what do
you call it life life and Deen Naqal
as well actually so these are the ones
that Deen is like for example that's why
they've got Hudud laws etc etc but these
are the six main, five or six main
necessities but there are other Maqasad of Sharia
as well and one of the you could
argue and many people have argued in the
books of Usul and stuff, one of the
Maqasad of Sharia is Tamkeen al-Muslimeen Tamkeen
which is to establish the Muslims, to give
them strength so my thing, you'll find a
trend, it's not necessarily the trend of Tasheel
people will know that for example when it
comes to the five pillars, when it comes
to Riba, when it comes to things where
there's Wa'eed, where there is people consider
it to be major sins for example where
there's a punishment, where someone's saying where there's
La'an something like that, you know I
do have a strict approach usually with those
things because you know what those things are
significant things in the religion of Islam Aqeedah,
you have to have the grounding but with
the subsidiary matters and we look at Maqsad
here versus a subsidiary matter even if, and
there's a Khilaf as well then you've got
to look at what is in the best
interest of the Muslim community in the next
twenty years, is it better when the far
right is on the up here in all
of Europe and in America is it better
for you to have a generation of men
who can defend themselves and their families or
not, the cowards, would you rather have a
generation of men that would run away and
they would freeze and they would not know
how to protect themselves and they would soil
themselves in a conversation of you know what
I'm saying, some of them would talk to
themselves Aqeedah, some of, Wallahi you look at,
you and I both know this Aqeedah if
you look at a man sometimes you can
tell just from this demeanor that he's not
on it, yeah you can work it out
a bully, all he has to do is
look at how he's looking at you, look
at how he's sitting, the demeanor, the disposition
the temperament, you can say I can rob
him decorum, body language Aqeed, I'm telling you,
my kid for example I've got four kids
Alhamdulillah and two of them they compete they
compete in Jiu Jitsu, not in MMA to
be fair, I do avoid the face here
but they need to know how to punch
in the boxing classes and stuff I wouldn't
subject my kids, I don't like subjecting very
young, because he's 8 and the other one
now is 11 but they do Jiu Jitsu
competitions and stuff, they do very well Alhamdulillah,
and everything else however, here's the thing, I've
seen the difference bro, between my child before
the competitions and all of that stuff versus
after, same with my nephew Yusha my nephew
Yusha, did you see a difference?
yeah my nephew Yusha when we got him
into boxing and he had a couple of
bouts and he was sparring with guys bigger
and heavier he's a different man, completely different
he became a man, yeah yeah after a
few competitions, a few amateur bouts sparring with
big guys, heavier guys getting punched in the
face and having to defend yourself it's different,
completely different so for example, when my son
done those competitions and stuff now I see
him in the summertime running in the swimming
pool he's walking around literally confident he's actually
he has achieved confidence this is one of
the key ways to achieve proper confidence, so
if you want to debilitate the Muslim community
tell them you can't do things that the
majority of the community are doing which actually
empowers them you'll find that the trend is
not Muhammad Hijab is looking for the easy
fatwas, you will know and all my friends
will know, every single person will know, yeah
that I was praying on and off when
I was 14 to 17, because I wasn't
fully religious at that time and whatever so
the Hanbali position actually Ibn Taymiyyah's position Ibn
Taymiyyah said that if you try and repeat
the prayers it's not even valid but the
other three schools of thought, which is not
the Hanbali school that I could easily follow,
say you know you have to repeat the
prayers actually I was praying 20 times a
day because I wanted to make sure that
I, you know, followed that the Hanafi position
is that you have to repeat everything so
I said I won't do this all in
one year so I tried to do 3
prayers plus 1 prayer the 5 prayers I
do, or 4 prayers plus 14, 15, 16,
17 I done all of that, I was
praying 20 times a day actually 22, trying
to do 22, 23 times a day, you
opted for the harder position so when it
comes to Salah when it comes to things
like that when it comes to Riba, I
don't really like to take the easier opinion
because if there's a verse in the Quran,
the trend is, you'll find that if there's
something which is not on that level at
all, not prayers, not the 5 pillars not
the Aqeedah, not any of that stuff but
at the same time, it's empowering the Muslim
community to a point where we are actually
in survival mode right now we're in survival
mode, don't tell me not to tell the
Muslim community that we need journalists and that
we need to speak to women Aqeed, don't
bring us there because if you do this
to us, you're going to debilitate us and
the Zionists are going to come but they
need journalists as well Habib, they need journalists
who know how to box man up as
well, exactly bro that's what I'm saying, that's
why I'm actually very proud of the Muslim
brothers here, because from my understanding, all of
us in the dawah have some experience in
this, absolutely every single one of us have
some experience Aqeed you know because you have
to have had that experience if you grew
up in a state city, everyone, someone roughed
them up so everyone now, I'm walking in
the street with my friends and I feel
like Alhamdulillah if this guy tries to attack
him, he's going to fight back, he will
definitely fight back, whether he win or lose,
that's a different story, like Hicks and Gracie
said in his book, very good book, it's
called Breathe by the way, he said that
there's no dishonour in losing, there's dishonour in
not fighting in being a coward there is
dishonour in that, the Quran mentioned that, so
you cannot safeguard yourself from cowardice from a
sedentary hypothetical theoretical perspective, and if you're talking
about Jiu Jitsu by itself for example I
think it's all well and good but it's
probably not enough to cross the threshold, it's
a great start and will definitely give you
an edge in a situation where there's clothes
involved and grappling and locks and stuff like
that but you need striking, because the thing
is like bottom positions, almost all the bottom
positions become, I'm not going to say redundant
but like I said, spider guard, you're going
to do that in the streets, hold the
guard and the guy's going to punch you
up, even in the guard normal guard, X
guard X guard you can transition to a
nice single leg or whatever, but it's still
long though there's a lot of things which
are not necessarily applicable at all, even like
if some people have done heel hooks and
stuff and they've made it work but really
and truly, if you don't get the angle
right in heel hooks, the guy's going to
punch you a black belt will become a
white belt with punches and not only that,
how much technicality can you do on a
half guard on a street fight, on a
concrete on the top, you're good bottom is
really problematic it's problematic, all the bottom positions
kind of become defunct at that given time
you really don't want to be in a
bottom so yeah, you definitely need more than
grappling, grappling is a great start it gives
you that edge, it'll give you that advantage
over someone who doesn't know any grappling but
yeah, learning combat sport and striking especially and
knowing how to defend yourself and throw a
right and a left it's very important and
if you're so staunchly against it after all
that's been said at least do freestyle wrestling
and jujitsu that combination would get you somewhere
where you can defend yourself, it's true and
the worst thing you can do is sambo
that's another option or even combat sambo yeah
they punch whatever you do, don't do nothing
that's what we don't want you to do
I would say it's so blameworthy I don't
want to say it's halal or haram because
it's not my job, I'm not a mufti
here but it's so blameworthy for a man
not to be able to I can't imagine
if I was a man I'm the same
as my wife in being able to defend
myself if I have the same level of
ability how can I live with myself I
would rather die actually I actually would rather
die I'm not going to lie bro I'd
rather die wrapping up bro did you get
a ruling for acting as well?
the acting thing, the sheikh looked at it
and he said I have to look at
the whole series he didn't give it a
full endorsement yet but he didn't say it's
haram either so you're a critic saying what's
next then?
no the acting thing that's it you're going
to only see me compromise on farai matters
you'll never see me compromise on asli matters
compromise in the sense that if there's a
minority opinion or if there's a maslaha thing
for the empowerment of the muslim community yeah
I think we all do it we actually
all do it car insurance as I mentioned
is the best example all of us do
car insurance do you feel guilty when you
drive a car no one feels guilty anymore
because it's become normal now let's be honest
hijra hijra is another ruling a lot of
them say it's wajib to leave the only
condition of being here is the dawah so
where's the dawah going to happen there's so
many rulings I can bring that people don't
give a damn look at student loans it's
potentially riba it's potentially at least riba but
no because education is empowerment so if you're
happy to put your son your daughter through
a university program with student loans and you're
willing to play the maslaha card and you're
willing to take a shubha fatwa which it
is because it's not qata' there's no question
then you're telling me what a man I
actually postulate I espouse the fact that a
man is better off and his wajib of
protecting himself and being able to fight is
a greater wajib than him having a degree
because you know for example that men are
protected and maintained as women because what Allah
has given one that he hasn't given the
other and also what they spend over the
women so there's two reasons one of them
is that Allah has made them protectors and
maintainers and then he talks about the money
so money is important to get a degree
for money but to actually be able to
protect them so come on bro the fact
that we're even talking about this and the
people who would have the criticisms would make
those compromises they have had student loans they
go in the car with insurance they're not
doing hijrah and they probably follow the opinion
brother be quiet you do your thing I
do my thing we can agree to disagree
and I have done istighfar because I want
to ask one of the greatest living scholars
of the day I could argue the greatest
I consider him to be one of the
greatest scholars of the day so at the
end of the day I've done my part
you do your thing I do my thing
my sons my friends those who follow this
will have an advantage over the ones who
don't all day long that's not even a
debate it's up to you what you want
to do with that that's not even a
debate but yeah man what else is next
I think we've given them a really good
session how long have we been speaking for?
hour and a half that's the perfect time
at this point covered a lot we'll put
it up I think there's not much that
we need to go so let's conclude since
we've spoken about so many things including MMA
and Dawah and obviously first let me ask
you is there anything that you're going to
come out with next is there anything that
you're so Ramadan's around the corner so I
think we're all busy with Ramadan with our
respective organisations, fundraising and events but definitely more
international assignments let's see what happens in the
year 2025 in terms of the Umma's affairs
I mean I did Afghanistan, I did Bangladesh
I did Syria because mad seismic political shifts
and changes were happening so if we see
more of that in the new year in
the Gregorian new year you'll see me in
those countries without a shadow of a doubt
so fundraising fundraising I know you're going to
be busy with sapiens we're going to be
busy with five pillars it's just that time
of the year isn't it where we have
to kind of prioritise well I'm sure the
Muslim community after they've seen your experience in
Syria and stuff like that there's no question
they're going to find it they're going to
be giving a lot of money to you
because they know what's we're talking about muslims
empowering the muslims yeah we saw some seismic
political events in Bangladesh in Syria, in Afghanistan
so if more of these events happen in
the year ahead you will no doubt see
me there on the ground reporting doing interviews
and podcasts with the key people, the key
officials, short films I think it's relevant and
absolutely necessary to connect the muslims of the
west with the struggles of the muslims in
these said countries, there needs to be a
synergy there needs to be an immersion between
the two in being involved in each other's
affairs because very early we're ummah wahid and
we need to remain united and if people
want to donate to five pillars fivepillarsuk.com
forward slash donate I'm sure they're going to
be already they've already written it I think
now one of them has actually paid the
money fivepillarsuk.com forward slash donate so yeah
so we're expecting a busy year ahead, I
mean just in 2024 alone we did Syria,
Afghanistan Bangladesh, Robert went to the US Robert
went to Lebanon, so we've done six foreign
assignments and foreign assignments are hard, I'm telling
you it's not easy to go to a
country and land certain interviews with key people
anyone can go to a country and film
content but you want to be going there
and speaking to the key people of these
events for example in Afghanistan I spoke to
the administration, the leadership there same with Syria,
same in Bangladesh and that's the type of
content people want to see people want to
see a conservative Muslim Islamic media outlet be
on the ground, be in this very same
place that the mainstream media are so yeah
I'm expecting a busy year ahead and if
you can support fivepillars in any shape or
form it would be very much appreciated and
the same goes for Sapiens and all the
other brothers and all the other different organisations
that do fantastic work Allah bless you and
Jazakumullah Khairan and you guys are free to
do that and I hope you do with
both Sapiens and with fivepillars, you're gonna expect
so many things from him because he's rough
and he's ready on that we conclude, Assalamualaikum
Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh you
know this and I know this so that
makes the reward even greater so give generously
and Allah Azza wa Jal will give you
even more